EvC Forum: Free will, perfection and limits on god

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Topic: Free will, perfection and limits on god

Phat

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Message 5 of 248 (187189)
02-21-2005 10:32 AM

Reply to: Message 1 by sidelined
02-10-2005 8:45 AM

sidelined writes:

I would like to know what the problem is that prevented god from creating a perfect being with free will. If this is not possible then what does this say about gods' abilities?

God did create that being. The being has not arrived at perfection yet, however. The being is still evolving to that conclusion.
HINT: This being loves his kids.

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	Message 75 by QBert14000, posted 04-18-2005 10:01 PM		Phat has replied

Phat

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Posts: 18351

From: Denver,Colorado USA

Joined: 12-30-2003

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Message 26 of 248 (187413)
02-22-2005 3:12 AM

Reply to: Message 25 by jar
02-22-2005 12:45 AM

Definition of perfection

perfection \per-fek-shen\ n 1 : the quality or state of being perfect 2 : the highest degree of excellence 3 : the act or process of perfecting

I like definition #2--the highest degree of excellence. To start with, looks don't count. Attitudes do.
What type o tude do this God be sportin?

Seriously, though, it is hard to define. Why not eliminate the traits that are undesireable?

1imperfect \()im-per-fikt\ adj 1 : not perfect : defective, incomplete 2 : of, relating to, or being a verb tense used to designate a continuing state or an incomplete action esp. in the past imperfectly adv

The Bible, though full of seeming inconsistencies, has said that God is Love. The Bible also defines love:

NIV writes:

1 Cor 13:1-8=If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Are these helpful definitions so far?

This message has been edited by Phatboy, 02-22-2005 01:29 AM

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Phat

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Posts: 18351

From: Denver,Colorado USA

Joined: 12-30-2003

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Message 76 of 248 (200250)
04-18-2005 10:24 PM

Reply to: Message 75 by QBert14000
04-18-2005 10:01 PM

Re: Does evolution have a goal?

Hey,Qbert! Yes, I wrote thatGod did create that being. The being has not arrived at perfection yet, however. The being is still evolving to that conclusion. HINT: This being loves his kids. Whereupon you responded:

Qbert writes:

You say that God created a being (humans, I assume) that is in the process of ariving at perfection. This seems to imply that evolution has a goal. Why do you think this is?

And its funny that you mention evolution. God has declared that many are called yet few are chosen. He basically chooses whosoever chooses Him. This is not the easiest nor the most comfortable path to take.
The main difference between this type of advancement and straight-up evolution is that this involves human will as opposed to natural selection. Comments?

This message has been edited by Phatboy, 04-18-2005 07:25 PM

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Phat

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Posts: 18351

From: Denver,Colorado USA

Joined: 12-30-2003

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Message 81 of 248 (200316)
04-19-2005 8:51 AM

Reply to: Message 79 by QBert14000
04-19-2005 12:38 AM

Re: Looking for a second step.

Qbert writes:

I think that perfection is relative, which you both seem to agree on.

Relative to whom?

However, if God created everything according to God's will, then everything is perfect.

God wants us to be perfect. Not by our own effort, but by our own willingness to trust Him.

Whether God is perfect is tricky, as you have said.

I believe that He is. He is an extreme God!

Does it matter either way? Things are still the way they are regardless.
If God can make mistakes, but also created exactly according to God's will, then whatever came of that creation is what God wanted, and is not flawed in any way, even though God can make mistakes. So, I guess the question may be, did God create exactly according to God's will?

Remember that God never created a fallen Satan. God created a freewill Lucifer who chose to rebel. Similarly, we are urged to pursue a righteous and Holy life in scripture, yet scripture acknowledges that ALL have and DO sin occasionally. Scripture then says that anyone who is a __________will not inherit the kingdom of God! Is this a contradiction?
The Pastor that I am listening to now as I type this says that the key is the individuals willingness to acknowledge the sin and to be willing to pursue God (greatest commandment) as opposed to minimizing the sin and declaring that they are OK and that it is human.

Our view of perfection and mistakes may be different than God's view of perfection and mistakes. Also, definitions by nature get us nowhere because every word is defined in terms of other words.

Words are the primary form of communication that we have. That is why we discuss things,eh?

This message has been edited by Phatboy, 04-19-2005 05:53 AM

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Phat

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Posts: 18351

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Joined: 12-30-2003

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Message 234 of 248 (205720)
05-06-2005 7:13 PM

Reply to: Message 1 by sidelined
02-10-2005 8:45 AM

how could god be imperfect? this flys in the face of reason.

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	Message 1 by sidelined, posted 02-10-2005 8:45 AM		sidelined has replied

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