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Author Topic:   Evolution != Atheism (re: the Rejection of Theism in Evolution)
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 135 of 178 (215943)
06-10-2005 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by Siguiendo la verdad
06-10-2005 2:28 PM


Re: Talmud discussions.
Mathew 19:3-8 (NRSV)
Some Pharisees came to him, and to test him they asked, ‘Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any cause?’ He answered, ‘Have you not read that the one who made them at the beginning made them male and female, and said, For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh? So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.’ They said to him, ‘Why then did Moses command us to give a certificate of dismissal and to divorce her?’ He said to them, ‘It was because you were so hard-hearted that Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so.
That Jesus quoted Genesis is not disputed, but these passages do not actually state that Jesus believed in their literal truth. I am an atheist and accept the theory of evolution, but even I have quoted the creation story, the flood story, and even the Tower of Babel to emphasise a point that I am making.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Siguiendo la verdad, posted 06-10-2005 2:28 PM Siguiendo la verdad has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Siguiendo la verdad, posted 06-11-2005 9:59 AM Chiroptera has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 139 of 178 (216182)
06-11-2005 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Siguiendo la verdad
06-11-2005 9:59 AM


Re: Talmud discussions.
quote:
If the creation account cannot be taken as an actual historical occurence, then the very basis of marriage looses its foundation.
This is your opinion, but not necessarily Jesus' opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Siguiendo la verdad, posted 06-11-2005 9:59 AM Siguiendo la verdad has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Siguiendo la verdad, posted 06-11-2005 7:11 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 144 of 178 (216283)
06-11-2005 9:14 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by Siguiendo la verdad
06-11-2005 7:11 PM


Re: Talmud discussions.
That the universe is about 13 billion years old is not in any way controversial. Neither is it really a question that the earth is four and a half billion years old, and the history of life extends back to three and a half billion years old. You may not believe it, but there it is.
So the question is whether Jesus believed in a literal Genesis story. A literal belief in the Genesis story is not necessary to believe in the Law. Most observant contemporary Jews do not believe in a literal Genesis yet have no trouble using it to explicate the Law.
So, the question is whether 1st century Jews believed in a literal Genesis. I do not know the answer to that question. If they did not, and since the Gospels do not tell of Jesus criticizing them for this, one can then assume that Jesus did not and was using Genesis metaphorically to explicate the Law.
But let us assume, then, that 1st century Jews believed that Genesis was literal history. What does this say about the nature of Christ (assuming that the Gospels themselves are accurate history, which they are not).
Now we know that Genesis is not literal history. You may not agree to that, but there it is. If Jesus was omniscient then he must have known that Genesis was not literal history. In that case, the only explanation for the passage in the Gospels is that Jesus was explaining the Law in terms that the Jews of that time could understand.
But maybe Jesus' divinity did not extend to omniscience while he was on earth. It could be that Jesus himself believed that Genesis was literal. Then what of the passage? Assuming that he was speaking under divine inspiration, he was explaining the Law in terms that he and his fellow Jews could understand it.
I don't know what more to say. Fortunately, I am not a Christian, I do not believe in the divinity of Jesus (in fact, I am not even certain he even existed), so I have no stake in whether he knew or did not know the correct history of the earth. But Christians who accept that the earth is several billions of years old, Christians who do not believe that God would fill the universe with misleading evidence, do have reconcile this somehow. Not that they should care what I think, but I feel that this particular point can be resolve logically and consistent with the facts as we know them.

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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 152 of 178 (216581)
06-13-2005 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 148 by Siguiendo la verdad
06-13-2005 8:33 AM


Re: Literal interpretation
quote:
You see, everything written in the bible has to be taken literally, which does not mean, for example, when psalms refers to trees clapping, that trees are actually behaving like humans and clapping their branches together like humans clap their hands. You would literally interpet that according to its context to be a poetic statement.
So, you should take everything written in the Bible literally except for the things you shouldn't.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Siguiendo la verdad, posted 06-13-2005 8:33 AM Siguiendo la verdad has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 164 of 178 (216662)
06-13-2005 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by Siguiendo la verdad
06-13-2005 1:48 PM


Re: Literal interpretation
Rule #1 and rule #3 appear to contradict each other.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Siguiendo la verdad, posted 06-13-2005 1:48 PM Siguiendo la verdad has replied

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 Message 166 by Siguiendo la verdad, posted 06-13-2005 2:38 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 167 of 178 (216673)
06-13-2005 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by Siguiendo la verdad
06-13-2005 2:37 PM


Re: Literal interpretation
In Genesis 7:11 (all verse are from the NRSV):
In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened.
And Genesis 8:2:
...The fountains of the deep and the windows of the heavens were closed, the rain from the heavens was restrained....
Quite literally, the Bible speaks of the sky being a dome, with windows in the dome through which rain falls. This is quite explicit. But let us use the Bible to interpret the Bible.
In Genesis 1:6 we read
And God said, ‘Let there be a dome in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.’
And this is quite consistent with the beliefs of the Semetic peoples living in the Middle East during the Bronze Age. The sky was a solid dome that kept the waters of heaven separated from the earth below, and that this heavenly resevoir was the source of rain, which fell through openings in this dome.
By interpreting this verse literally, we can conclude that the sky is a solid dome which held up a heavenly resevoir of water.
Of course, I don't recall Jesus making direct reference of this heavenly dome, so perhaps one can still be a Christian if one doesn't believe it. I have my doubts though....

This message is a reply to:
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