Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 84 (8914 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 06-17-2019 12:33 AM
24 online now:
DrJones*, PaulK, subbie (3 members, 21 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: 4petdinos
Post Volume:
Total: 853,883 Year: 8,919/19,786 Month: 1,341/2,119 Week: 101/576 Day: 2/99 Hour: 2/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev1
2
Author Topic:   Creationist Fanatics
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 3247 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 16 of 26 (295339)
03-14-2006 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Chiroptera
03-14-2006 5:54 PM


And yes, you're right: Dawkins does justify his Atheism with evolution.


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4
This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Chiroptera, posted 03-14-2006 5:54 PM Chiroptera has not yet responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 26 (295356)
03-14-2006 8:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by AlgolagniaVolcae
03-08-2006 3:56 AM


Re: Why I find it hard to respect Creationism, and why I fear it.
AV writes:

Since originally proposing this topic it has come to my attention that Duane Gish(Senior Vice President of ICR(Institute of Creation Research), maybe future president since Morris' death), a public face of Creationism isn't overly respected by the majority of Creationists. This puts to rest the thoughts I had that his and ICR's way of thinking represented a majority in the movement.

Do you have any stats to verify this claim? It would be my notion that the majority of creationists do respect ICR. I for one do for the most part, but do not agree with all they teach.

AV writes:

He lost me when he claimed the Grand Canyon was cut by a single massive surge of water(great flood) rather than over time by a steady flow.

I have ICR's Grand Canyon video on it's origin and believe they did a good job. Their arguments make sense to those of us who understand how much a global flood inundation would do to the planet.

1. The NT text which you've quoted is not talking a war of violence by humans. It's teaching that we wage the spiritual warfare which will convert the folks into the kingdom of God. As prophesied, in the end God will through Christ, messiah, then rule the world as a rightious kingdom "with a rod of iron" when all will be subject to Jesus. God will effect any judgement necessary to complete this when that time comes.

2. It worked in America, because unlike when the popes and bishops of the dark ages controlled the civilized world, the majority American Christians held to the fundamentals of Christ and the apostles who advocated no oppression or violence. ICR and other prominent creationists have no aspirations of lording it over anyone. They simply tell their story in the media and where ever they can.

AV writes:

ICR also takes every oppurtunity to jump on scientists who falsify their findings, so that they can mention the inherent fallibility of all scientists. (http://www.icr.org/index.php?module=news&action=view&ID=53)

That's their right. They debate the majority secularist views in the universities and other public arenas, winning some and loosing some as debates goes.

AV writes:

" We trust science. We trust that scientists have done their work well and honestly when we drive a car over a bridge, ride in an elevator, or undergo a surgical procedure. But we need to be realistic in our trust of scientists. Scientists are human with sin natures just as the rest of the human population. As Christians, when a scientific “breakthrough” is reported we should either examine the evidence for ourselves, or if we are not qualified to discern the data (which in many cases only a specialist in the field would be able to do), we should wait until the data are verified and confirmed by other reputable scientists before claiming it as fact. Unfortunately, many Christians transfer their trust in science to a scientist when he gives an opinion or hypothesis about the origins of the universe, the living world, and humans as well. Many assume that since a scientist said it, “it must be true” even if it apparently contradicts Scripture. From the recent events depicting the problems that a few scientists have had with honesty and integrity, we should remember that they are human and just as prone to sin as the rest of us. When can we fully trust scientists? Just as soon as people stop running red lights! "

Usually when I hear that phrase it goes more like this, "they are human and just as prone to mistakes as the rest of us" though they get a B+ for effort in trying to hide it because the last I checked falsifying findings isn't a sin. Though as it says scientists are prone to mistakes like anyone else, so their findings should be checked by other reputable specialists ... why then do they ignore the fact that many specialists who are not part of their club consider Creationist "science" to be untrue and in some cases entirely speculative?

I don't see what your problem with the quote is. They didn't say falsifying findings is a sin. They simply said we're all human sinners and imperfect beings subject to error. I think it's cool that now with folks like ICR, secularist scientists are held accountable and confronted with people who can present the alternative of creationism in the science arena, something the laypeople on the street are unable to do.

AV writes:

After reading a bit of ICR's website, and a few more like it there is no doubt in my mind that I would not be safe from discrimination living in an area where these people were a majority or had integrated themselves into local politics to a point where they could initiate change(such as forcing a strictly religious topic to be taught in schools).

A current example of problems which could arise from fanatical and uncompromising Creationists like ICR gaining any type of political power(putting aside just for the moment the threat from individuals who support the movement) can be seen in Salt Lake City, which has long had problems seperating Church from State.

What about the extremists in the Creationist movement? The individual zealots, every religion has them and to think a few have not latched onto Creationism is very bad judgment.

The very idea of the movement as put forth by ICR and other similar groups is to wage war against those who refuse to believe, so I ask you what is to stop them from bombing museums and other institutes of learning which don't support Creationism?

Neither ICR nor any other creationist organization I know of in The US has any intentions to ever wage war aginst those who refuse to believe. They are Biblical fundamentalists who follow the NT fundamentals of nonviolence just as Jesus and all the writers of the NT teach. This is why Biblical fundamentalists who follow these precepts founded this free and blessed republic with it's Constitution, having all the while these Biblical fundamentals as taught by Jesus and his apostles including Biblical creationism taught in the public schools of the early republic. SLC, again deviated from those Biblical principles. The prime religious book by the majority in that region is not the Bible, but the BOM. They are not Biblical fundamentalists.

AV writes:

Those are the reasons I am afraid of Creationism gaining any type of real power or overwhelming following, the majority of people who believe it may coexist with those who don't ... but the fanatics that can't coexist are the ones that have my attention and influence my opinions the most.

Suffice to say, I think there's a far greater number of things to fear from Creationism than there are from Evolution. The prime one being a degradation of our culture to a more superstitious time, after all what are the wrathful events in the bible if not prettied up magic?

1. Na're fear. North America, the land of the free, unoppressed and blessed was ruled for over two centuries by creationists, beginning with the colonists with the Bible and it's creationism being taught in every school, public and private. :cool:

2. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Nearly a hundred million citizens were murdered by their own secularist governments, none of which taught Biblical creationism in their public schools last century.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 Z Y BUZ SAW
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by AlgolagniaVolcae, posted 03-08-2006 3:56 AM AlgolagniaVolcae has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by mikehager, posted 03-16-2006 9:26 PM Buzsaw has responded
 Message 25 by ikabod, posted 03-17-2006 9:34 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 26 by AlgolagniaVolcae, posted 03-27-2006 3:36 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 26 (295358)
03-14-2006 8:51 PM


Welcome, New Members
I forgot to welcome our two fairly new members participating in this thread. Nice to have you both and we hope you'll enjoy it here.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 Z Y BUZ SAW
Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-15-2006 10:16 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 3247 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 19 of 26 (295490)
03-15-2006 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Buzsaw
03-14-2006 8:51 PM


Re: Welcome, New Members
Thank you Buzzsaw :D


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4
This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Buzsaw, posted 03-14-2006 8:51 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
AlgolagniaVolcae
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 26 (295817)
03-16-2006 2:43 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by IrishRockhound
03-14-2006 7:26 AM


Alot of the topics here are beyond my education, or will to even attempt to seriously take part in. I will be sticking around though and chiming in where I can.

Thanks for all the greetings I have received, I am glad many of you enjoyed the post. Most forums I post on do not allow religious discussions of any kind so it's a welcome change to be able to post about it.

Several of you have said there are radicals on both sides, while that may be true I do believe the religious radicals are the more dangerous due to the fact they are quicker to make the leap to violence.

One more thing before I head to bed, if god requires his followers to have faith in him(and not know for an absolute certainty that he exists) why then would he design the universe so that it clearly points to intelligent design?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by IrishRockhound, posted 03-14-2006 7:26 AM IrishRockhound has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Buzsaw, posted 03-16-2006 8:36 PM AlgolagniaVolcae has not yet responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 26 (296089)
03-16-2006 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by AlgolagniaVolcae
03-16-2006 2:43 AM


Possibly you can get around eventually to addressing some of the points in my message? Thanks.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 Z Y BUZ SAW
This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by AlgolagniaVolcae, posted 03-16-2006 2:43 AM AlgolagniaVolcae has not yet responded

  
mikehager
Member (Idle past 4630 days)
Posts: 534
Joined: 09-02-2004


Message 22 of 26 (296096)
03-16-2006 9:26 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Buzsaw
03-14-2006 8:45 PM


Re: Why I find it hard to respect Creationism, and why I fear it.

1. Na're fear. North America, the land of the free, unoppressed and blessed was ruled for over two centuries by creationists, beginning with the colonists with the Bible and it's creationism being taught in every school, public and private.

2. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Nearly a hundred million citizens were murdered by their own secularist governments, none of which taught Biblical creationism in their public schools last century.

While there are myriad points here to take issue with, I like limiting my points of debate. So, (even forgoing your omissons of fact) I must ask... Buz, do you even know what the word "causality" means? If you think that what you said in the quoted passage is of any value, you must not.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Buzsaw, posted 03-14-2006 8:45 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Buzsaw, posted 03-16-2006 11:05 PM mikehager has responded

    
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 26 (296120)
03-16-2006 11:05 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by mikehager
03-16-2006 9:26 PM


Re: Why I find it hard to respect Creationism, and why I fear it.
Hi Mike. "Casualty?" Would you mind clarifying your point?


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 Z Y BUZ SAW
This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by mikehager, posted 03-16-2006 9:26 PM mikehager has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by mikehager, posted 03-16-2006 11:42 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
mikehager
Member (Idle past 4630 days)
Posts: 534
Joined: 09-02-2004


Message 24 of 26 (296124)
03-16-2006 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Buzsaw
03-16-2006 11:05 PM


Re: Why I find it hard to respect Creationism, and why I fear it.
Ok, you don't know what causality is. I wasn't incorrectly spelling "casualty".

Causality is (according to our good friends at Merriam-Webster) " The principle of or relationship between cause and effect." The way in which that relates to your statement is stated clearly in the old stats 101 saw, "Correlation can never show causality".

In other words, that the communist regime in Soviet Russia killed many of it's citizens and was atheistic at the same time is worthless in making determinations about the effects of atheism. Both things existed together, which is a correalation. Such a correalation does not provide any evidence that one correalated factor is the cause of the other.

Your other point is similarly flawed. That America was Christian during it's rise as a world power is not informative as to the effects of Christianity on a nation. It does not show that being Christian is the cause of a rise in temporal power and wealth, or any other qualities. Maybe something else was the cause.

I could make a similar claim. It is a fact (I can provide references upon request) that church attendance increased steadily from 1970 to 1986. It is also a fact that the per capita rates of murder, rape and cocaine trafficking arrests increased steadily during this period. There is a correaltion betwen the two... they are both rising at the same time. Would I therefore have evidence for the claim that attending church causes murder, rape and cocaine trafficking? No, I wouldn't, because correlation does not show causation, just like in your claims.

Your claims could be true. I am pretty sure they aren't, but they still could be. You just haven't provided any supporting evidence at all.

This message has been edited by mikehager, 03-16-2006 11:43 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Buzsaw, posted 03-16-2006 11:05 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

    
ikabod
Member (Idle past 2656 days)
Posts: 365
From: UK
Joined: 03-13-2006


Message 25 of 26 (296184)
03-17-2006 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Buzsaw
03-14-2006 8:45 PM


Re: Why I find it hard to respect Creationism, and why I fear it.
Quote
"1. Na're fear. North America, the land of the free, unoppressed and blessed was ruled for over two centuries by creationists, beginning with the colonists with the Bible and it's creationism being taught in every school, public and private. "

....unless of course those people in North America where natvie americans or forceably imported africans , then the creationists schools taught how such people where "less than" and they knew little of freedom and being unoppressed in those two centuries in the good old US.

and
Quote

"2. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Nearly a hundred million citizens were murdered by their own secularist governments, none of which taught Biblical creationism in their public schools last century. "

...does this mean secularist governments, none of which teach Biblical creationism in their public schools will kill a similar number this centry ?? ie England , Australia , Fiji , Malta ,
you know those real nasty places .
OR do you mean if only Stalin had made the svoiet schools teach creationisum the gulags would not have been needed ?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Buzsaw, posted 03-14-2006 8:45 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
AlgolagniaVolcae
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 26 (298746)
03-27-2006 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Buzsaw
03-14-2006 8:45 PM


Re: Why I find it hard to respect Creationism, and why I fear it.
I've talked to several creationists I know personally, and many more on the net. Most of them do not take ICR seriously.

The grand canyon explanation given on Penn and Teller's show had no proof whatsoever, only an opinion. If they had proof, they should've showed it or mentioned it not merely said it was caused by the flood.

Spiritual warfare, whatever, their wording could easily inspire physical warfare despite what they may have meant. It has already likely been interpreted as meaning a physical war by many of the less stable minds who believe in magic sky beings.

Of course it's their right to question science, but say they make mistakes(which isn't a sin) don't use wording like sin nature.

Scientists are held accountable all the time, we don't need ICR to hold them to anything. They may present the case of Creationism, though they will never truly win because alot of the "science" involved isn't taken seriously by experts outside of their club.

They have lost every debate I have seen, most notably the majority of their attempts to have it taught in public schools. If they cannot win even half of the debates what does that say for the idea itself? It's nearly impossible to defend because it has no real basis in fact.

Pure and simple, Creationism or any belief in gods and demons is superstition no matter how you package it. It might as well be fairies and dragons we are talking about.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Buzsaw, posted 03-14-2006 8:45 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Prev1
2
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019