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Author Topic:   Black Holes, Singularities, Confusion
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5850 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 17 of 60 (350934)
09-21-2006 6:13 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by cavediver
09-17-2006 5:00 PM


Re: more Questions..
Heheheh... I tend to just read your posts and never reply because I know how ignorant I am going to look, namely because I am. Although I have an interest in pursuing physics (which we discussed before and thanks for the advice) I am still rather ignorant of it. I'm a guy used to studying the universe in much more collected forms.
In fact, if you think of all particles as different kinds of little knots in the fabric, you are not too far from how we view things. This concept gets you away from the eroneous idea of space-time being an arena for "things" to live in.
Okay, I am already clued into the idea of particles being "knots" of some sort, though it always seems intuitive to me to see them as involving space or energy and not time. I think its that time element which really throws me off and I start wondering if we are confusing mathematical models (a way we can describe/understand processes in an organized way) with underlying reality.
No, "energy" is a derived concept. You cannot describe space-time in physical terms. Only mathematics suffices at this level.
Isn't time related to energy? Boy am I gonna look stupid but here it goes...
We have e=mc^2 and tend to use c as a "limit". Isn't it possible that e is actually the limit, and so regulates what we can see as maximum v, which would be c? Instead of a space-time fabric, more of a space-energy fabric with perhaps a maximum level of energy allowed within a portion of space?
Thus any area consists of a space-energy "density", and sufficient density creating what we consider particles or mass? That (to my mind) would result in "time" because really what we use to measure time could be thought of as limited by energy.
Now here's a lame example. Say we use a quartz crystal for keeping time, current convention (as I understand it) is that as it approaches c it begins to slow down to an outside observer (and indeed does so in a measurable way).
But wouldn't that make sense by assuming that it is the result of energy limits within the system? The quartz crystal marks time by oscillations which is itself movement, and so involves energy. Moving in a direction also involves energy (or at least an input of such). If there is only so much energy that can be part of a system then as it nears c, less energy can be devoted to movement in other directions (oscillations). The same would seem to be true for radioactive materials which would have energy devoted to movement rather than emitting particles. With a slow down in oscillation and particle emission the practical effect is a slow down in time, it would "age" less as energy is commited elsewhere.
Now there could be a zillion things wrong with that crackpot theory, but the only one I am seeing is that energy is needed for acceleration and not necessarily to continue movement. But I'm not sure if that's true for particles near the speed of light, and I am not sure if that is true in a space-energy field where energy initially put into the system might count as stored energy and count toward the maximum.
Anything you can do to return me to sanity, or at least disabuse me of my incredible ignorance, would be appreciated.

holmes {in temp decloak from lurker mode}
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by cavediver, posted 09-17-2006 5:00 PM cavediver has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by nwr, posted 09-21-2006 12:05 PM Silent H has replied
 Message 35 by fallacycop, posted 09-23-2006 10:09 AM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5850 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 19 of 60 (351040)
09-21-2006 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by nwr
09-21-2006 12:05 PM


Re: more Questions..
No, that does not work at all.
Not surprised, but I'm uncertain about the example you gave.
Isn't the observational difference from the vantage point of the person in the ship because of the speed of the "information" from the quartz crystal? That is it will take longer to reach and so appear to slow down?
From what I understood most time dilation experiments focused on moving the object itself and seeing that time rate is changing there.
In fact if time dilation happens in both directions why must it be accounted for in GPS measurements, wouldn't their mismatch sync?
Obviously I'm not suggesting I have the facts here. I am only stating what misunderstanding I have.

holmes {in temp decloak from lurker mode}
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by nwr, posted 09-21-2006 12:05 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by nwr, posted 09-21-2006 2:18 PM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5850 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 21 of 60 (351093)
09-21-2006 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by nwr
09-21-2006 2:18 PM


Re: more Questions..
When you correct for the doppler effect, the relativistic time dilation remains.
Ahhhhh... you are now filling a rather large hole in my knowledge. I was merging them into one phenomena.
It is far easier to move the clock, than it is to move the observer
I understood that. But if what you said was true, that for a spaceman moving to c the clock he observes outside his ship slows down, why wouldn't scientists just accelerate something and see if our clocks slow down? Would there be no way to measure that?

holmes {in temp decloak from lurker mode}
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by nwr, posted 09-21-2006 2:18 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by nwr, posted 09-21-2006 3:33 PM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5850 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 24 of 60 (351238)
09-22-2006 7:38 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by nwr
09-21-2006 3:33 PM


Re: more Questions..
The exception is in particle accelerators, where one can observe relativistic effects on the rapidly moving particles. But that's only possible for objects light enough to be accelerated to near c.
Ironically I lived next to Fermilab (walking distance) for a long time, and apparently my visits still didn't rub off on me. Then again I guess I was more interested in the subatomic particle research and conclusions than anything in theoretical (GR and SR) physics.
I see what you mean though regarding a difference between satellites and particles in accelerators. I am hoping cavediver will have some info, and maybe some theoretical issues regarding energy v time.

holmes {in temp decloak from lurker mode}
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by nwr, posted 09-21-2006 3:33 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by cavediver, posted 09-22-2006 9:21 AM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5850 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 25 of 60 (351240)
09-22-2006 7:45 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Son Goku
09-22-2006 3:59 AM


It has been done several times, in a hundred different ways.
I'm not sure if this was regarding what nwr discussed or not. I am (as a spinoff of earlier discussion) interested in understanding how we measure time dilation, and in particularly the concept that one's own moving faster (close to c) results in a real dilation for the other.
I was under the mistaken idea that only the "moving" subject experienced a real slow down, and any appearance of the "stationary" subject slowing down was just that, appearance.
To make clear to anyone reading this thread, I am not at all trying to set out some new theory of physics or something. I understand that there is a concensus and evidence regarding GR and SR, as well as Space-Time models, I am only stating that I don't understand them and what seems more intuitive to me from my lack of knowledge.

holmes {in temp decloak from lurker mode}
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Son Goku, posted 09-22-2006 3:59 AM Son Goku has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Percy, posted 09-22-2006 9:03 AM Silent H has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5850 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 30 of 60 (351417)
09-22-2006 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by cavediver
09-22-2006 9:21 AM


Re: more Questions..
Thanks to both Percy and Cavediver on the latest installments. The posts were helpful and hopefully further steps on a path to recovery.
First off, subatomic particle physics research and SR are utterly intertwined.
Intriguingly I never picked this up at the Fermi tours. I suppose if they mentioned it I just sort of yada yada'd it in my mind, simply to hear about the particles.
The only way of understanding the concepts is through mathematics - there has been a total disconnect with principles that we would call "physical". We don't model the physical systems with mathematics, because there are no physical systems to model. We look for consistent mathematical constructs that give rise to emergent physical properties.
Is it wrong for me to admit this is somewhat troubling on a gut level? It reflects something I mentioned earlier where I worry that we may be mistaking working equations with underlying reality?
In any case, I will digest what you guys have given me and not continue diverting this thread away from black holes. I will likely create a new thread with more specific questions along these lines in a few weeks. In specific I am interested in energy as an emergent property (I guess that's how I'd read "consequence"?) of time-translation-symmetry. Is that (yet another dumb question) what is being captured in the schrodinger equation?
If you have a competing theory, first off measure the complexity of your ideas aganist this.
Heheheh... I wouldn't call it a competing theory, just a theory competing for space in my head with a better one I don't have enough experience with. Unfortunately the better one does have its work cut out given the strength of my attachment to "common sense" and "everyday experience". Though I guess I managed to break them enough to handle QM in chem courses, this seems yet further counterintuitive.

holmes {in temp decloak from lurker mode}
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by cavediver, posted 09-22-2006 9:21 AM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by cavediver, posted 09-22-2006 7:20 PM Silent H has not replied
 Message 36 by Percy, posted 09-23-2006 10:18 AM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5850 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 38 of 60 (351574)
09-23-2006 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by fallacycop
09-23-2006 10:09 AM


Re: more Questions..
I would like to point another (possible?) missunderstanding present in your post.You seem to believe that there is some intrinsic limit to the energy that a particle may have.
Oh this is the exact kind of thing that would be excellent within a new thread. Yes it likely does uncover a misunderstanding I have.
Let me try my hand at answering it from my errant conception. I did view there being intrinsic limits to the energy a particle may have, though I limited that to an area of space. I'd also alter my description to something more than a single limit. I was trying to suggest that specific energy "limits" are reached where they may collapse into a stable form within an area (localized stable space-energy field) we'd call a particle.
Remember the preceeding is a manifestation of my ignorance and not something I am trying to champion as the "real physics".
Regarding your direct point, as a particle approaches c doesn't it essentially lose "particleness"? It was my understanding that as energy is pumped into a particle to that degree (say in an accelerator) the chemistry is not known to remain the same and the end result may be the creation of many more particles with all sorts of different characteristics?

holmes {in temp decloak from lurker mode}
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by fallacycop, posted 09-23-2006 10:09 AM fallacycop has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by fallacycop, posted 09-25-2006 6:38 AM Silent H has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5850 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 39 of 60 (351579)
09-23-2006 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Percy
09-23-2006 10:18 AM


Re: more Questions..
I share the same feelings, but I understand why Cavediver and company adopt a "mathematics is the only reality" attitude.
Yeah, I get it too. Especially when practical results keep coming out of it. But I keep wanting to change that to "mathematics is the only way to understand/observe reality in extreme environments".
I definitely understand your analogy to inaccuracies in atomic models. I think maybe one of the larger problems for me is that the subject matter for GR, SR, spacetime is more ephemeral than discussing the nature of particles (from a strictly chemical viewpoint).
Whatever skill I had in math (which was pretty high, doing rudimentary QM and all) has since rusted so badly I look at the equations and can't believe I once understood stuff like that. So I'm definitely stuck in the same boat you are, even if cavediver feels it might be sinking.
I'm now spending time reading more about physics... and everyone's posts have helped me both to get a firmer grasp, as well as drive an interest to get it right. I'm thinking I'll have a new thread to work out more of my issues in a few weeks. Heheheh... cavediver may have to put up with some lack of math ability, but I'm sure he can do it!

holmes {in temp decloak from lurker mode}
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Percy, posted 09-23-2006 10:18 AM Percy has not replied

  
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