sophistry and propaganda at TalkOrigins...

Hi Randman,I guess I shouldn't be surprised that my recent posts have had no effect, but I am anyway.Your last two posts contain many of the same litany of accusations that resulted in your Showcase status. How do you think a free and open exchange of information and ideas is going to occur if you're habitually accusing the other side of:

• Engaging in bait and switch tactics.
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• Using indoctrination.
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• Engaging in illogic.
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• Being unobjective.
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• Using deceptive logical fallacies.
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• Being intellectually dishonest.
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• Lying.

Even if you believe all this stuff, you simply can't maintain a civil dialogue if you give voice to it, especially continuously as you do.Is there a way to tell the difference between someone who wants to have civil dialogue but doesn't know how, and someone who doesn't want to have civil dialogue?I think so. The former should improve over time, the latter will not.I'm seeing no improvement, so what other conclusion can I draw other than that you're simply not interested in civil dialogue. Even if you were absolutely right in everything you say, you simply can't talk to people that way here. I've made this clear to you over and over and over again.I'm not yet sure whether I'll finally take action on Showcase, I'll have to think on this, but I think a lightbulb may have gone on for me. If you have anything to say that would help me see what you're doing as constructive this is the time to speak up.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Hi Randman,We do not seem to be getting a closer to a common understanding.I've reached a decision. Because of all the discussion that has recently taken place by Showcased members in threads not in Showcase, and because that participation just made it more clear why they were Showcased in the first place, I'm going to cut back Showcased members to just these forums: I understand that you never saw Showcase as a means to regain normal status. I did think that you'd be interested in maintaining access to some of the Side Order forums, so it did surprise me that we weren't able to find any common ground.If you ever decide that you'd like to abandon your approach of giving as good as you get and then some, and to instead become a force for calm and reasoned discussion, please let me know.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Hi Randman,It occurred to me later that my question that you were responding to, at least it's the question I assume you were addressing, was to help me understand how what you were doing could be construed as constructive. In case it wasn't clear in my previous reply, explaining how you are justified in your behavior because evolutionists are just as bad and worse is not a way to portray yourself as constructive. What you described was actually a rationale and formula for escalation and conflict, not for reason and moderation.When moderators are putting out fires, the difficulty of unraveling a thread to find fault is often too difficult to place blame on any single individual, but your offenses against the Forum Guidelines usually exceed all others to such a degree that assigning you responsibility is often very easy. This wouldn't be so bad if you'd honor moderator cease and desist requests, but you don't.You're like the guy who gets into a minor scuffle in a bar that the police break up. The police aren't really interested in finding fault and arresting anyone, they just want things to calm down. But if your behavior here is any guide, you'd say, "It's his fault," and you'd continue the fight right there in front of the police. The police have no choice at this point but to arrest you. You'd be dragged out of the bar to the squad car, all the while yelling and screaming, "After what he did you're arresting me? How is that fair? You police are all biased and dishonest."I notice now I forgot to answer your last question. No, I'm not a Christian. I'm a Unitarian, but there are almost no Unitarian churches left (they merged with the Universalists back in the 1950's and it muted the spiritual voice of Unitarianism) and I now euphemistically consider myself a member of the church of the Reverend Dorothy Kimble, a retired minister who I greatly admire.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Even creationist moderators have admonished you.It is apparently not within anyone's power to help you through your acute feelings of paranoia and your kneejerk defense mechanisms. You're going to have to do that yourself.Evolutionists and Christians as groups are not much unlike each other. They're both just people. This is a site which stresses civil dialogue as a means of improving the possibility of constructive exchanges of ideas and opinions. You can be a part of these discussions if you choose to engage others civilly. It is really up to you.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Did someone accuse you of incivility in that thread? It certainly wasn't me since I posted nothing after Message 11.Staying on topic is a problem for you because you tend to throw everything including the kitchen sink into every discussion. The last few messages we've exchanged have developed out of my dismay at your Message 20 and Message 21 in this thread, not some other thread. If you'd want an attaboy for being able to control yourself for a whole quarter of a thread over at Sam Harris/Andrew Sullivan Online Debate at Beliefnet, then attaboy! Great job!Meanwhile in other threads it was same-old, same-old. As I said recently about your replies to my inquiry about how your contributions could be interpreted as constructive, they were a formula for escalation and confrontation. Moderators cannot calm things down if one of the participants always ignores moderator requests because he feels he's been so wronged he doesn't have to follow any rules.I've gone way, way out of my way in trying to accommodate your voice here, and if you aren't interested in availing yourself of the opportunity because you've nominated yourself as the person who's going to wreak vengeance on evolutionists for all their crimes, then you're just not going to have much of a voice.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

But you never establish that it's illogic. You just argue that it is for a couple posts, then after that everyone who still disagrees is subjected to accusations of intellectual dishonesty, of being indoctrinated, etc. That's why you're in Showcase, because thread after thread in which you were a participant became a 12 car pileup. Civil discussion, that's all that's required. The reason for this is that without civility discussions degenerate into pissing contests. As I've explained over and over and over, EvC Forum is here in order to make possible civil discussion between creationists and evolutionists. I'm not changing that, so you can accept this and get on the bus with everyone else, or you can stand on the street corner and watch the bus go by without you. Your choice.Notice that I am not claiming that evolutionists are angels. I said before that both evolutionists and creationists are just people. But when a moderator enters a thread and says cool it, you're usually the one who doesn't cool it. And you'll argue lengthily for why you shouldn't have to cool it. You'll instead argue that you're justified in upping the ante, evening the score, escalating the conflict. Moderators will always be unable to address anyone else's jaywalking while you're committing grand theft auto. If you insist on doing things your way, then this is where you'll stay.It is also a significant problem for you that you have a whole raft of opinions where in your mind you've checked off the little box that says "I've already established this beyond doubt," whether true or not, and it's usually not. Once you've checked off that little box, you believe that anyone who disagrees with you is fair game for charges of dishonesty, indoctrination, not thinking, etc.Whether you agree with anything I say or not, just go forth and violate the Forum Guidelines no more, that's all it takes.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

I'm just trying to help you understand my position, but if you're not finding this helpful then I'm not interested in forcing unwanted information upon you. Since it is your wish, I'll leave you alone.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

You also requested that you prefer I participate as Percy, but I'm not going to discuss moderation issues as Percy. If I participate as Percy then I could only discuss this topic, and this topic doesn't interest me.I'm not here to satisfy your every whim. You've already taken far more of my time than can be justified, but I did it in the hope that perhaps you might come to see the other side of the issue. If the evidence and argument I've provided thus far is not helpful in this regard then I don't really think continuing is going to be any more likely to be productive. It was with this in mind, that I would soon have to bring discussion with you to a close, that I indicated at the end of my Message 33 that it isn't necessary that you agree with me as long as you follow the Forum Guidelines from here on out. It's your choice.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director