EvC Forum: "True science" must include God?

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Topic: "True science" must include God?

crashfrog

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Posts: 19762

From: Silver Spring, MD

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Message 13 of 47 (212395)
05-29-2005 7:29 PM

Reply to: Message 12 by randman
05-29-2005 2:39 PM

The problem with your question is the concept of separation of supernatural and natural. That's a false dichotomy.

If there's no dichotomy between the supernatural and the natural, then what's the difference? Don't we then have two words that describe the same thing?

I'm not saying I disagree, exactly, but it doesn't make sense to say that something is both natural and supernatural. But then I've never seen a coherent definition for "supernatural" in the first place.

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	Message 12 by randman, posted 05-29-2005 2:39 PM		randman has replied

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	Message 14 by randman, posted 05-29-2005 10:47 PM		crashfrog has replied

crashfrog

Member (Idle past 1495 days)

Posts: 19762

From: Silver Spring, MD

Joined: 03-20-2003

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Message 15 of 47 (212473)
05-29-2005 11:02 PM

Reply to: Message 14 by randman
05-29-2005 10:47 PM

The terms mean different things in different contexts.

Not they way you just defined them, they don't. You've just established that they mean the exact same thing.

Well, what the heck is the difference between, say, the superluminal realm suggested by effects we see in entanglement, and the spiritual or supernatural.

Well, one big difference would be that the superluminal realm you describe is substantiated by its effect on the world we do observe, and therefore part of it; the supernatural or spiritual realm has never been substantiated by anyone.

This message has been edited by crashfrog, 05-29-2005 11:05 PM

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	Message 14 by randman, posted 05-29-2005 10:47 PM		randman has replied

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	Message 16 by randman, posted 05-29-2005 11:19 PM		crashfrog has replied

crashfrog

Member (Idle past 1495 days)

Posts: 19762

From: Silver Spring, MD

Joined: 03-20-2003

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Message 17 of 47 (212506)
05-29-2005 11:38 PM

Reply to: Message 16 by randman
05-29-2005 11:19 PM

Crashfrog, I submit the superluminal realm is substantiation of the spiritual and so-called supernatural realm.

Since that realm is not populated by ghosts, nor spirits, nor is capable of gifting humans with magic or paranormal powers, I submit that claim is a priori ridiculous. You might just as coherently assert that Cleveland is substantiation of the spirital realm.

So a realm beyond, faster than the speed of light, could by definition be called supernatural.

As a realm governed by physical law, and capable of being affected by and affecting the world of matter we're familiar with, that realm, by definition, is natural, not supernatural.

I am stating if it's real, it's part of reality, regardless of the term we call it.

If it's real, part of reality, and it's something we can detect, then it's part of the natural world, by definition.

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	Message 16 by randman, posted 05-29-2005 11:19 PM		randman has replied

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	Message 18 by randman, posted 05-30-2005 12:02 AM		crashfrog has replied

crashfrog

Member (Idle past 1495 days)

Posts: 19762

From: Silver Spring, MD

Joined: 03-20-2003

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Message 19 of 47 (212525)
05-30-2005 12:11 AM

Reply to: Message 18 by randman
05-30-2005 12:02 AM

We have no idea in terms of the science what that realm is populated by.

Ignorance can never be the foundation of an argument.

Consciousness in the broader sense includes "spirit" by any definition of that term so we do in fact have some evidence that realm is populated by spirit.

Er, no, we don't. Our consciousness resides in this realm, not that one, remember?

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	Message 18 by randman, posted 05-30-2005 12:02 AM		randman has replied

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	Message 20 by randman, posted 05-30-2005 1:18 AM		crashfrog has replied

crashfrog

Member (Idle past 1495 days)

Posts: 19762

From: Silver Spring, MD

Joined: 03-20-2003

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Message 21 of 47 (212542)
05-30-2005 1:42 AM

Reply to: Message 20 by randman
05-30-2005 1:18 AM

The Bible says we all have a spirit and a soul

I don't know what those things are, and I certainly don't have either one.

What I do have is a consciousness, and it resides in my brain (loosely speaking), in the physical world.

My hypothesis is that judging by near complete similarities to the biblical view of physics

I'm sorry, "Biblical view of physics?" If physics is right there in the Bible how come it took 2000 years to figure it out? Isn't it rather suspicious that nobody was able to decode physics from the Bible until after we'd figured it out without the Bible's help?

if you would or how the world really works to quantum physic's principles, so much so I cannot find a principle in disagreement, and the fact the quantum physics specifically agrees with spiritual principles on the nature of reality in terms of existence here on earth, I submit the idea that quantum physics is touching on the realm called spiritual.

I submit that you're fooling yourself - you looked for something so hard that you found it wherever you looked. Just like the Law of Fives.

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	Message 20 by randman, posted 05-30-2005 1:18 AM		randman has replied

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	Message 22 by randman, posted 05-30-2005 2:34 AM	crashfrog has replied
	Message 29 by 1.61803, posted 05-31-2005 2:58 PM	crashfrog has replied

crashfrog

Member (Idle past 1495 days)

Posts: 19762

From: Silver Spring, MD

Joined: 03-20-2003

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Message 24 of 47 (212604)
05-30-2005 10:01 AM

Reply to: Message 22 by randman
05-30-2005 2:34 AM

What constitutes the physical world?

The smallest closed system that can encapsulate all phenomena that we observe.

Also, I suggest you study up some on QM before assuming I am merelt looking very hard for something and imagining it is there.

Been there, done that.

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	Message 22 by randman, posted 05-30-2005 2:34 AM		randman has not replied

crashfrog

Member (Idle past 1495 days)

Posts: 19762

From: Silver Spring, MD

Joined: 03-20-2003

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Message 30 of 47 (212922)
05-31-2005 8:17 PM

Reply to: Message 29 by 1.61803
05-31-2005 2:58 PM

You have a consciousness?

I'm honestly not sure about that. Sure seems like I do.

If I have a consciousness, it's only in the same sense that I have an idea, or an opinion. As far as it's possible to have any of those things, I have a consciousness.

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	Message 29 by 1.61803, posted 05-31-2005 2:58 PM		1.61803 has not replied

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