The Academic Bill of Rights

In the last thread Should those of religious faith be allowed to run this country? we began a discussion of the Academic Bill of Rights. Unnecessary legislation is very dangerous and it is suprising that a conservative would be in support of such a thing. Maybe you could answer the question that Faith has yet to tackle starting here: Message 238It is not only a question of need but also of motive especially in the absence of evidenced need.My opinion is that the govn't needs to recognize the importance of and keep its nose out of academia. That is how we have gotten where we are and why fix it if it ain't demonstrably broke.Then again you and Faith might actually post some evidence. I know you said before that such statistics don't exist but isn't that in and of itself telling? Why should we be passing legislation without thinking about if there is really a problem? Should some studies be commissioned and we, God forbid, think about the issue carefully and logically before we call for a vote?I don't think that any of the liberals here have any specific problem ONLY with the language of the bill. You need to look at it in the context in which it is being introduced, the reason it is being introduced, the people who are introducing it, and the speed and lack of objective information used to support it. Taken in this light, the legislation "fails the common sense test" as good ol'e Tal would put it.----------------------------------------------------------------We have come to the point where the critics of the bill are asking Faith and CanadianSteve to post some hard evidence that this legislation is actually needed.In fact, when evidence was posted to the contrary in: No regard was given.I want to continue the discussion and ask for confirming objective evidence that legislation is needed to fix bias in higher education. Also, a response to my original question of why a conservative and staunch anti-socialist would turn from his political philosophy to push a blatant socialist agenda.What are his motives? Are they important while criticizing the bill?Do we really need an Academic Bill of Rights?This message has been edited by Jazzns, 06-09-2005 11:55 AM

Just a little friendly constructive criticism.Instead of just closing what was a very active topic, can you instead warn and give us a few posts to prepare a new thread. I am anxious to get the discussion moving again and it feels like we were just cut off pretty abruptly.Thanks,

We left of with your claim to have provided evidence. This was challanged on the issue of bare links as evidence.Also still open are the rest of the issues from the OP especially regarding the one about contradicting political philosophy.

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FOX has a pretty good system they have cooked up. 10 mil people watch the show on the network, FOX. Then 5 mil, different people, tune into FOX News to get outraged by it. I just hope that those good, God fearing people at FOX continue to battle those morally bankrupt people at FOX.
-- Lewis Black, The Daily Show

Can you post a link from the old thread to this one please?

Thanks for making that clear.Would you be so kind as to repost the link in this tread so that posters don't have to searching for it.With regards to the inability to find a broad study of the issue, don't you think one is needed? One might be able to list N number of examples of something bad but without context of how frequent that actually happens out the real world how can anyone make an objective opinion that the ABoR is needed?Also, what about the blatant contradiction in political philosophy being displayed by both the conservative supporters in the forum and the sponsor of this bill? We are slowly approaching double digits in the number of times I have asked this question with no response.No one is going to dismiss this based on your and CS's inability to support your assertions. My stance is pretty clear, I think this bill is full of crap until it can be objectivly shown that there is a major issue of liberal bias in universities. If you want to call that a dismissal then that is your perogative.

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FOX has a pretty good system they have cooked up. 10 mil people watch the show on the network, FOX. Then 5 mil, different people, tune into FOX News to get outraged by it. I just hope that those good, God fearing people at FOX continue to battle those morally bankrupt people at FOX.
-- Lewis Black, The Daily Show

Thanks for the link. Since it is somehow difficult to gather information from there I will check it out on my own.Regarding the political views. I don't feel like you understood the question. This goes way back to the message I linked in the OP.Traditional conservatives like less government involvement in things. This bill does the opposite of that by installing more government regulations. This costs money and will tie up courts. It will put a strain on an enterprise system that is currently working.The bill is anti-conservative so why are all the conservative or ultra-conservative people supporting it? There must be a reason.My theory is that because their politics have been overshadowed by their ideology. Why do you think so many conservaties are broadly going against their political philosophy to support this bill?

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FOX has a pretty good system they have cooked up. 10 mil people watch the show on the network, FOX. Then 5 mil, different people, tune into FOX News to get outraged by it. I just hope that those good, God fearing people at FOX continue to battle those morally bankrupt people at FOX.
-- Lewis Black, The Daily Show

I second. Abstract law based on non objective need is bad no matter what party proposes it.

That is a good characterization. Thank you.Somehow many dozens of posts later this is being missed. This is a meta-issue.

My point is that it is not the governments business to do this and a true conservative would agree with me. Real conservatism is about de-regulation, freedom, and keeping the governments nose out of American institution. Why are these extremely conservative people then playing hypocrite to their values? Please do not be snide. You know very well that my position is one of skepticism that this is actually going on at all. That is why we have been incessantly asking you for actual evidence because we are in disbelief that this occurs with any regularity. In my entire higher education experience the only something like this ever occurred the prof was severely disciplined by the systems already in place to deal with this.The issue with the lawsuits is that Conservatives should not be in support of anything that is going to cost the government more money and tie up the legal system. Fiscal and legal conservatism is being overshadowed by something for these supposed ultra-conservatives. What is that? It is by definition non-conservative legislation. See Asgara reply to you. More regulation = non conservative ideals. Here we go. This is a semi-real answer although I am not sure if you wanted to say this. What you are basically saying is that this is a personal issue rather than a product of conservatism. Real conservatives would be looking for ways to provide alternatives to state funded higher education like the waiver system for public primary education.Just because the alleged action is against conservative people does not mean that the response is a conservative one. The bill is blatantly not conservative. Therefore, why the exodus from primary conservative values? Answer, ideology. Please do not presume to think for me. Thank you I appreciate it.The point is that these folk who support this are rowing upstream of their political leaning for something that should be (and is in most cases) common sense ethics. There is no reason for them to do this unless there is motive greater then their political agenda. I can believe that a conservative would draft a perfectly egalitarian bill; this just is not an instance of that and demonstrably so. But the bill does not add freedoms it is restricting them. It is calling for general government oversight of an extremely dynamic institution. It is anti-conservative in spirit and exposes the blatant ideology and non-objectivity of its supporters.

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FOX has a pretty good system they have cooked up. 10 mil people watch the show on the network, FOX. Then 5 mil, different people, tune into FOX News to get outraged by it. I just hope that those good, God fearing people at FOX continue to battle those morally bankrupt people at FOX.
-- Lewis Black, The Daily Show

That this is even happening in any frequency to require legislation has yet to be established. Your excuse that the information is just "too hard" to reproduce in this forum does not automatically render support to your point.I will paruse your links when I am in a situation where I have a graphical rather than text based browser. So far one of the cases that your sources cite as evidence has been debunked and I expect that they will be nothing more than a laundry list of incidents with no objective perspective on the issue as it applies to higher education across the board. I could be wrong though which is why I plan on investigating your links.Until then, you do not get to declare victory on this point. You have not demonstrated objectivly that there is a need for this legislation. You have not demonstrated that this happens with any significant frequency at all.

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FOX has a pretty good system they have cooked up. 10 mil people watch the show on the network, FOX. Then 5 mil, different people, tune into FOX News to get outraged by it. I just hope that those good, God fearing people at FOX continue to battle those morally bankrupt people at FOX.
-- Lewis Black, The Daily Show

That might be a little too conspiracy theory for me.I think the assault upon liberalism is apparent and the intent is to actually cripple an institution that makes people think.When you educate yourself all of a sudden their propaganda is not as potent. It is no secret that college campuses are pretty liberal but that is not because conservatives are being scared away. It is because students are learning about the world and deciding that facism is not what they want for their country. Most educated people I know are either liberal or classic, non-neo, good ol'e conservative. Most uneducated people I know are vast right wing nuts or bleeding heart liberals.Not to say that you cant be a neo-con fascist or a hippie AND be smart but colleges are factories for centrism and that threatens the ideological agenda of guys like Horowitz.That is also why a crazy guy in a loin cloth protests in front of the student book store on campus talking about free drugs and no war. Education is bad because once people are educated they stop blindly agreeing with your 1st grade blather.Once we get rid of all the educated people we know our political propaganda machine is better than the left and therefore our subjugation of the illiterate and uninformed can continue unabated.

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FOX has a pretty good system they have cooked up. 10 mil people watch the show on the network, FOX. Then 5 mil, different people, tune into FOX News to get outraged by it. I just hope that those good, God fearing people at FOX continue to battle those morally bankrupt people at FOX.
-- Lewis Black, The Daily Show

It certainly has the added effect of propaganda though. Just look at how it is polarizing a segment of academia. I am not convinced that propaganda was the primary reason for introducing this like the constitutional ammendment against gay marriage was. This just does not seem to have the same amount of foresight involved to be any kind of intentional political seperating catalyst.That is just a fringe benefit.

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FOX has a pretty good system they have cooked up. 10 mil people watch the show on the network, FOX. Then 5 mil, different people, tune into FOX News to get outraged by it. I just hope that those good, God fearing people at FOX continue to battle those morally bankrupt people at FOX.
-- Lewis Black, The Daily Show

No I do not! I had many professors that were very much classic conservitives. I would say it would about 60/40 in favor of the left but in no way "overwhelming leftist bias".It may have been different in a non technical field but that does not matter.You and Faith have yet to establish this with objective evidence. A list of incidents does not count. I am sorry if you somehow think that this should be somehow obvious but it simply is not. Law needs to be based on objectivly demonstrated need and not the political opinion of anyone. THAT IS a conservative value that I am SHOCKED so many would so readily abandon.

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FOX has a pretty good system they have cooked up. 10 mil people watch the show on the network, FOX. Then 5 mil, different people, tune into FOX News to get outraged by it. I just hope that those good, God fearing people at FOX continue to battle those morally bankrupt people at FOX.
-- Lewis Black, The Daily Show

Let me tell you what I would be doing.First lets assume that the problem does exist. Conservatives are wildly controlling higher education and failing liberal students based on bias etc. Notice that this is something that outrageous and still has yet to be shown.If I wanted to try to get legislation to fix this I would get together a group of concerned citizens like those who created the websites of the sources you quoted. But instead of just providing a list (and a paltry one at that) of incidents I would actually try very hard to get enough people together so we could fund a study and lobby our representatives IF that study came out the way we expected.If I couldn't or didn't want to solve the problem through legislation I would vigorously take my case to the existing channels with the support of my group. Assuming universities have a board of regents or something similar in this fictional universe, I would continue to make my case for university policies that enforce academic honesty and quality checks on the faculty. (something that already exists in the "real" universe at any university I have ever heard of)I would support the injection of arbitrary legislation by a radical politician even it if helped me with my cause. Regardless, freedom must be protected in this country even if it means having to take the harder path to illicit change.

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FOX has a pretty good system they have cooked up. 10 mil people watch the show on the network, FOX. Then 5 mil, different people, tune into FOX News to get outraged by it. I just hope that those good, God fearing people at FOX continue to battle those morally bankrupt people at FOX.
-- Lewis Black, The Daily Show

I spent some time at:Sucuri WebSite Firewall - Access DeniedAll I found was this:Sucuri WebSite Firewall - Access DeniedLike I thought, a laundry list of complaints. What I didn't expect was that it would be so short!Why was this hard to present in this forum? Even a better link would have sufficed like the one I gave above. It seems like you couldn't post the evidence because really....there actually is none.At that page there is nothing but a list of allegations. No evidence of any effort to follow up the complaints which is further shown by the 2 examples that have been discredited by the research of members of this forum.On top of that, many of the incidents had nothing to do with classroom activities but rather university policy. No indication of just how broad the "bias" of liberal professors is.If this is the evidence that you feel requires immediate legislative action then it is severely lacking. That Horowitz would actually quote a site of such poor scholarship in his support of the ABoE is appalling.I am convinced more than ever that this is an ideological tactic that should be crushed in any legislature. I plan on contacting my local representatives and the local branch of the ACLU to make sure that they know about this and are ready to take action if this type of sloppy legislation ever gets passed in my state.This is NOT about academic freedom. Academic freedom already exists. This is about a minority of extreme conservatives who feel the need to directly attack freedom in order to stifle liberalism. This is the action of people who would pay any price, including giving up freedom, to succeed in a perceived war of political opinion.I thought that I might ask for a better source but since this is the same source that Horowitz is touting it really is embarrassing for anyone who supports this anti-American, foul piece of legislation.

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FOX has a pretty good system they have cooked up. 10 mil people watch the show on the network, FOX. Then 5 mil, different people, tune into FOX News to get outraged by it. I just hope that those good, God fearing people at FOX continue to battle those morally bankrupt people at FOX.
-- Lewis Black, The Daily Show