You have to kick the donky out of your farm!!!

I do, and have. As I told you before. Where do you get your crazy ideas from, Contra?

Thought I'd make a sensible post, since it seems only a very few people have done so. Awww... How beautiful! It almost makes me want to be a noble suicide bomber someday... How glorious to blow myself up in restaurant or bus. I would die happy knowing of all the death, pain, sorrow, and terror I would bring to a few people.Sigh... both sides are victims in this 'war' if you can call it that. The palestinians are victims of organizations like hamas that get their power from inciting the palestinians to rage. They send suicide bombers into Israel to kill peaceful civilians, and then Israel retaliates inevitably killing civilians sometimes too. Hamas uses these incidents and greatly distorts the facts to rouse even more to anger. MORE suicide bombers go across bringing MORE retaliation.All that is necessary to stop the violence is for the Hamas to disappear and the PA to start looking after the wellfare of their own people. Instead they care more about taking land from Israel, than having peace. Israel has offered HUGE amounts of land to try and appease them, but this will not do. The arabs will not be satisfied until Israel leaves altogether, and this will not happen, so why not be reasonable and just live peacefully? They are too power-mad and greedy for land.And they think they are being oppressed by Israel. Where's the oppression, other than some dubious military retaliation for suicide attacks? If they're so righteous, why aren't they enraged at their neighboring countries like Saudi Arabia where there is NO freedom for women, no religious freedom, no freedom of speech, etc... People are murdered by their own government all the time.At least Israel is a free democracy, and a prosperous one at that. There are only two solutions to this problem, and negotiation is not one. This has been proven over and over. Either Israel must say, "We give up, we will now cease to exist". Or they must take over Palestine too and set up law, order, freedom, democracy, and prosperity thereby destroying the terrorist breeding ground.Since Israel DOES have a very legitimate right to exist and since they have brought freedom, democracy, and prosperity to the middle east, there is absolutely no reason why they should simply commit national suicide as the PA expects them to.

Blah blah blah. You really have no idea what I know and what my position is. First of all neither Hamas nor Al-Queda fought british imperialism. Second, I do agree that many across the midEast are suffering because of the results of British Imperialism and there were valid efforts to drive them out.Iraq, Afghanistan, and Israel are three charming examples of how British Imperialism screwed up Islamic peoples and then had the US move in to make things even worse.This does not give Hamas or Al-Queda any credibility. All you have to do is look at there ventures, their goals, and their own statements. They do not have the FUTURE in mind for any of the people they are supposedly protecting. They are extremists with their own agendas.If you do NOT recognize that fact then you are listening to someone else's propaganda. What the hell are you talking about? He is a competent guerrila leader at best. His actions have NEVER resulted in MILITARY SUCCESSES.Indeed, his greatest "claim to fame" was helping drive the Soviets out of Afghanistan, but that was with the backing of the US's CIA.I will not deny that he is smart, and competent, and from what I understand extremely charismatic and well-spoken. That does not change the fact that his tactics are of NO USE in solving the issues faced by the Palestinians, and furthermore that his help for the Palestinians would only come at the cost of joining his agenda. We've been deterred? If anything he has helped Israel by putting the foes of Palestinians into power and keeping them there.This is where you seem to be lacking perspective. He has been entirely successful at launching specific attacks. But he has been a miserable failure at accomplishing his goals. They have pretty much all been phyrric victories (if you can even call them victories). That's because you have a strawman of me. It can only be hypocrisy if I am not critical of what the US has been doing, which I am.You know I can have more than two-dimensions, and I do not buy the stock dilemma of Bush and BinLaden. Wow, you must really hate the Palestinians.This is the most asinine and pessimistic assessment I have read in some time. Clearly Palestinians should avoid your "help". Paradigm shift. They are not truly captive. They are shut out. While I agree that the casual violence is the same, it was the same as seen in the west as well. And the wall is a perfect example of why it is NOT the same as Nazi Germany. Nazis walled the jews in, Isrealis are walling the Palestinians out. Hell they are even called settlers.In Israel we have a group with their own concept of "manifest destiny" and setting up a walled fortress to keep the "savages" from invading.I stand by my assessment that this tragedy is more like the old west than Nazi germany. But then who the F cares anyway? The point is these people are getting screwed.Oh yeah, now I know why we should care what the difference is... the stakes and the solutions can be different. They don't need to fight the same way and they can accept a bit more injustice (or perhaps make a better trade... like land for money). Their very existence does NOT depend on the defiance of Israel, ONLY (and I'm sure well all agree this is important) their improvement in life. This refers to their repression which I already agreed with. It does NOT have anything to do with occupation.SOME Palestinians (and it is not even the majority) have had their lands taken (yes I agree illegally) and that is what the occupation is.The only other occupations are temporary ones when Israel makes incursions.I think (especially after this much time) they ought to focus less on land issues, and more on repression/rights issues. With prosperity one can always BUY MORE LAND. No matter who you are and what side you are on, ANY TACTIC can be evaluated for its success or failure. Despite being the underdog (and I wish you'd stop playing that card as this is NOT in dispute), one can still engage in activities which are so shocking that turns potential allies.And this is part of where Palestinian leaders must start understanding a change on strategy is in order. They need to get more allies. This is not an impossible task. But it will take a change in tactics (on top of the change in strategy).I realize that Israeli tactics OUGHT to be losing them allies, but Palestinian tactics keep getting replayed to make US officials leery of taking their side at all.Thus "over aggressive". They do a lot of damage which results in no military or social superiority, as well as undermining their standing with any potential allies through its apparent pointlessness. Says you. Even Arafat has admitted that he blew a good chance. I agree that the world is having a tough time standing up to the US, but current tactics prevent anyone from presenting the Palestinians as being on any high ground.The Intifadah has given them nothing but more pain. You can analyze it yourself. It's been 2-1 losses for the Palestinians and it doesn't look like its going to improve anytime soon.If they stop fighting they will not be killed will they? Sidelined yeah, for a time, but not killed. That looks like a better opening to me. They missed it once and Arafat has already openly regretted that decision. The problem will now be if they get a second chance. That is where the US MUST come to their aid... which I admit we are NOT DOING.Abandoning suicide attacks and other aggressive tactics would help in getting some of that aid. Thus longterm strategy suggests abandoning current tactics.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

dandon83Just how much do you know about what happened between 1917 and today?Do you remember that both Jews, Muslims and Christians have lived in the area now called Palestine for a long period; the Jews have been there for over 6000 years, the Christians for over 2000 years and the Muslims for over 1400 years?Do you understand that Trans-Jordan only exists due to the stroke of British and French pens?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I agree with you that both sides are victims in this war. And contracycle (as well as the original poster) seem to be out of the loop where the real solutions lie.However you seem to have some of the facts incorrect. This is an illusion which Israeli apologists (and extremists) like to continue.There are terrorists on both sides and they have been intentionally killing people on both sides. In fact, the largest purely terrorist attack (also credibly argued as the FIRST purely terrorist attack on wholly civilian targets) was by Israeli extremists.It should also be recognized that Sharon has been part of Israeli extremist groups and vocally encourages (and orders) collective punishment. Thus extremist actions come at Palestinians from both illigitimate and "legitimate" government forces.The greater burden falls on the Israeli gov't to reform.This is not to say Palestinian extremists are innocent or justified, just that they are not the cause and continuance of the "war". Like Apartheid South Africa? You must really understand that Israel is anything but a FREE DEMOCRACY.Israel was not a nation until Britain and the US supported (well drove) its creation through the UN. Read up on the details. A tortured border was created so that it was a Jewish majority nation... a, ahem, racially pure state, ala Nazi Germany.This is NOT an exaggeration. The Israeli movement was one to exclude other races living right next to them, and essentially steal their neighbors land. For those trapped within the necessary boundaries (in order to create a contiguous country) they were FORCED to live as a minority, where in reality they are a MAJORITY.That was disenfranchisement of the highest order. Wonder why people were pissed?In reality the entire region should have been one nation with a mixed population, only the Israeli movement got it divided as they wanted into one Jewish nations, and the rest could go to hell.Imagine if your family, living only a few miles away, was suddenly redistricted by people at the UN into another nation, and in such a way that they will ALWAYS be a minority and so not have a voice in that government.Oh yeah, and you are left without a real nation... unless you agree that your family (just a few miles away) cannot be a part of it.Sound good to you? Wouldn't that make YOU want to fight?And this "free democracy" is working to keep the other races (well, religions) from ever obtaining equal voting power. That is the reason for the denial of the right of return. If even a portion of people were allowed to return to their rightful lands, within a few decades the Jewish majority would be at risk.And by the way Israel did not bring prosperity to the MidEast. The money and efforts came from the outside. Focus any amount of money and effort into one groups property and it tends to improve. In the US the practice was known as red-lining and is now illegal.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Thanks Whatever. I just logged in and have finished reading the entire thread. when I read the opening post of the topic, I thought I had some work cut out to do here, but you've done it well, thoughtfully, sensibly and accurately. These scriptures have been historically relevant and are relevant today in understanding what in the world's going on.My Exodus Video thread showing the hands on visual evidence of how God's word holds true shows how his promise to the descendents of Abraham, Issac and Jacob held, is holding and will hold true all the way to Armaggedon and the return of Jesus the messiah who will indeed rule the world from Jerusalem as promised.The fact that world news focuses in on the middle East and specifically with the nations designated Biblically prophetically for Armaggedon is telling.The Arab Muslim world has oodles of vacant land surrounding Israel which could accomodate the so called Palestinians. Where are their offers to alleviate the problem by setting their own brethren up, but no. They've gotta have the comparatively itty bitty already crowded spot on the map called Israel to move into. According to the prophecies they'll keep on keeping on butting heads, with a respite now and then, but on to Armageddon the nations march on schedule as prophesied exclusively by the Biblical prophets of old, including Jesus himself.

You are rationalizing the murder of Jews. Of course europeans will gladly support you in this endeavor to get the focus off of themselves when they stood by while Hitler gassed 6 million.You should of accepted the Oslo accords as you seem to be arguing now.

really? funny I remember my grandfather fighting in some big war?

So did mine - he was an American.

so your point is a load of crap?

Stood by? While Hitler did what? Not sure how old YOU are, but most Europeans are under 60.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Willowtree, what a load of bull! Now, I'm grateful to the USA for the help they gave in defeating Hitler and his cronies, so this isn't meant as a criticism of the USA, but the question is just begging to be asked. Where was USA when Poland fell? Where was the USA when France fell? Or Norway? Where was the USA when GB was on her knees and threatened with invasion? I could go on and on. The USA only got involved when Japan bombed Pearl Harbour without a declaration of war and Germany was forced to declare war on the USA because of their treaty with Japan. So don't go throwing stones when you live in a glass house, you just might find that they rebound from our toughened safety glass and smash your own.For those of you who consider this off topic, also consider that I appear to be replying to a donkey! Sheesh!

Thousands of miles across the Atlantic.Europeans (I didn't say the British) appeased Hitler until it was too late.As if America should of rushed into war when Poland fell. Jews were already being prepared for genocide. The truth is europeans didn't care because it was Jews, the cowardly support of the Palestinians by europeans today proves the generic truth contained in my original argument.France ?What excuse does Vichy France have ?

The British are europeans.you are wrong,wrong,wrong.Or is this another thread, where you will make about 1000 assumptions and then claim victory because people call you on it.

Well. Several of those Europeans rushed to your aid when you were fighting for your independence.
The point is not that the US didn't do anything (I can't blame them), the problem is claiming we stood by and did nothing. The governments (France & England) desperately tried to avoid war. You mean they should have waged war on Germany to avoid war?Lucy

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