Endogenous Retroviral Insertions Demonstrate Evolution Beyond a Reasonable Doubt

Adminnemooseus temporarily closed this thread just as I was about to post my own concerns, so I think it was a very good idea. Now that this thread has had a little time to cool down, without singling out who I view as the offenders I'd like to express my concerns that not only is little on-topic discussion happening here, but there are also too many personal comments and not enough substantive discussion. EvC Forum has a set of Guidelines that are enforced by moderators and administrators, and I'd like to request that participants to this thread please do the following:

• Please stay on topic for a thread. Open new threads for new topics.
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• Please argue the position and not the person. Avoid becoming personal.
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• Support your positions with evidence and/or argument as appropriate.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Administrator

Sorry for one more off topic
" with thanks for being one of the few professional voices in here" from the jester
I can't leave this alone, I am not a professional in any of the areas under discussion and don't want to mislead.I have done a fair amount of reading of secondary sources and some primay however. I do understand some of the concepts.

Among other sources that carried the news, there is this link. This story is no longer available - Washington Times
Now since I actually live in this country, I get different news and believe it or not different version of the news,and the brief has already been submitted to the International Court here in the Hague. And the university's dean of law, Nabil Hilmi, did not dream up this up, this is a repeat of the same law suit filed 2000 years ago, Page not found - aish.com. This is presented for two reasons, one because you basicly called me a liar or a fool, and two because you made the statment that no one believes this fairy tale any more. And my point is that you do not have all the facts or data in front of you. You are not ignorant nor stupid, you are just isolated from different news sources, and yes, news sources and the "news" they present differs all over the world, and what you consider a fairy tale is an actual event, recognized by hundreds of thousands of educated people. Where you might not hear of a study or an event back in America, I will read extensive coverage of it here in the local papers.You need to understand the different people in the world get the same information presented in different ways, I rely on the time I spend at the University of Leiden for a lot of my information. When I am not at the Electronic center, I visit collegues over at the human science center for info and debates.I am fortunate enough right now to live in a country where being a scientist and a creation are an acceptable combination, where the children still learn of god and evolution in the class rooms. This isn't ignorance this is acceptance of the weighing of evidence, taught to the children here at an early age.
Now sine this was presented to you as a reference for a statement in which you inferred I was either stupid or a fool and I supplied the references as a reply, could you please offer me the same respect and answer the original question.I asked a basic question at the start of this, does the aforementioned study "prove" beyond a reasonible doubt the theory of evolution, and I have gotten nothing but insults back and no answer. The intent and the meaning of the terminology of the question has already been stated in numerous postings here, so it meaning of the questionshould be clear, does the afore mentioned study "prove" that evolution is true?Fixed first link - It needed a space in front of it - Adminnemooseus[This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 09-16-2003]

Your original claim was:

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He fails to mention that the research I speak of is so recent that it made CNN and MSNBC within the past two weeks, and he won't mention it or acknowledge it becasue it weakens his case.He then states..."Archaeologists are no longer even contemplating a biblical Exodus group either, or an enslavement of the Hebrews, or a desert wandering, and it is even highly unlikely that there was ever a united monarchy.".....totally disregarding the recent evidence supplied to the International Court in the Hague, by the Egyptian government, as the basis for a lawsuit. They, the Egyptians, presented documented copied of scrolls, with detailed accounts of the gold and properities the Jews took when they left Egypt. The basis of the lawsuit is they are demanding this gold and properties back. The exodus of the Jews has some documentation, or it would not have made it up to the International Court, as the are laws of evidence and procedure to
follow to get there, I presented this to Winace, but his dismissal was " Anyone could file a lawsuit", showing a complete lack of understanding on how the International Court works and accepts cases, but it was put on disregard as it doesnt fit his theory , the same as Brian, here. This story was also carried on CNN.

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NEITHER of the links you present supports your assertions, nor do they contradict Brian's rebuttal. Indeed they confirm that the lawsuit is NOT from the Egyptian government and mention NO evidence or documents other than the Torah. Moreover they only state that the lawsuit is in preparation. In other words it may never get to the International Court at all.On the basis of te fact that the sources you cite as evidnece support Brian's assessment of the lawsuit over yours - and make no mention of the alleged "evidence" you accuse Brian of ignoring I think you owe Brian an apology.

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Mammuthus
see this is proving my point exactly, you ask a question to evolutionist, that can be answered very easily and all you get is snide comments like "I had a religious upbringing..I weighed it and it came out wanting. Or are you going to show me how the bible can help me determine the appropriate magnesium concentration for my next PCR? "

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If you are going to claim that your opinions or beliefs are equally valid in addressing scientific questions, then what you base your claims on i.e. the bible (and its supposed veracity) it must be more useful for me in addressing said scientific questions than my sources. It is completely useless to me to use the bible as a scientific resource. The bible does not address the scientific method, it describes no system for characterizing the natural world and in some instances has errors like cud chewing rabbits.

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--- yes mammuthus, the bible is really specific on this..
or flat out denials like,
"Except that nobody here has made that claim and a number of us have explained to you that science does not "prove" anything...you can continue to ignore this concept and repeat your fallacy but that will not increase its veracity." ====yes they did mammuthus, or did you miss the name of this topic and why do you avoid a direct answer to it?

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Show me where I, mark24, nosyned, Percipient or anyone other than WinAce claimed that science "proves" anything? Do you or do you not understand the scientific method?

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or this===
"Until you grasp how science actually works your arguments will continue to be off target and actually detrimental to your cause."
mammuthus, just because my interpetation of evidence is different doesn't mean its any less valid, or my understanding any less than yours.

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Your understanding is less valid than mine because you have not demonstrated that you know what the theory of evolution is and you have demonstrated that you do not understand the scientific method. That does not mean you are stupid and I am not insulting you. But I am saying that if you lack this requisite knowledge then your interpretations of the evidence are from a position of lack of knowledge and are thus less valid.

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The interpretation of evidence is way our legal system in the united states is build on a jury for important cases and not a sole judge, because evidence is open to interpretation.

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That is all well and nice but science is not employ legal methodologies and scientific facts are not determined by the opinions of a jury. And what makes you think that the theory of evolution has been determined by a sole judge? The evidence IS interpreted by thousands of researchers every day...re-interpreted, reinvestigated. Again, do you know how science works or do you not?

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This is the exact response I am talking about from evolutionist, hundreds of words and not one answer. Mammuthus, why dont you answer the question, are you that afraid of the answer?

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I answered plenty of your questions and you have ignored or evaded most of mine......a bit hypocritical of you really....and what answer am I supposed to be afraid of? That creationism is a purely irrational beleif of several sects of fundamentalist christianity (and several other religions)...sorry I figured that one out long ago.

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People who don't see things your way have a lesser understanding of science, or doesn't understand things, or as the starter of this fantastic claim stated, are just "ignorant hillbillies".

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Not all people that disagree with me have a lesser understanding of science than I do. You however have a lesser understanding of biological science than I do. That does not mean I think you are an ignorant hillbilly. It means I do not think you have made the effort to research how the scientific method works or what the theory of evolution actually states.

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Personally I think you are pretty self centered and concieted to actually believe that you have such a full and complete understanding of the biological and geological forces that existed to form our universe and all life and that any one that doesn't see it your way is ignorant.

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I think you should re-read my posts. You are the one claiming anything you say is superior to that which represents the cumulative research of thousands of scientists..not a sole opinion. You equate your opinion with actual scientific hypothesis and theory and THAT is pure arrogance. And on top of it you misrepresent me by claiming that I have stated I understand the entite universe and all life and that anyone who disagrees with me is ignorant. Are you actually capable of a rational debate where you stick to what people say or are you just going to build strawmen arguements and launch personal diatribes against anyone who disagrees with you?

I would also like to point out to you that you have not supported your claims that your "opinion" is equivalent to scientific evidence or that your "opinions" regarding the evidence are equally valid to to those of myself or any other evolutionary biologist. You have thus far claimed we have not "proven" evolution which all of us have stated is not part of the scientific method but disregarding this..however, the onus is on you to support your assertions so....please state your precise interpretation of the data in those studies and show how the endogenous retroviral insertion reference provided by WinAce and the articles I cited in post 11 better support (or are refuted) by the bible or whatever creationist idea you wish to adhere to.

Here is another news article addressing the lawsuit:Egyptian lawyer to sue Jews for biblical 'plunder'A couple of relevant points form it :
"Hilmi said Egyptian and European historical and religious experts were trying to establish if the biblical passage could be taken as fact, and hence form the basis for a lawsuit."That would not be relevant if they had significant evidence ot support the Biblical account."Hilmi gave no details of which court he planned to file the case in or whether he thought such a case would be exempt from the sort of statute of limitations that in many countries rules out legal cases after a certain period of time."Confirming that no case has been filed - so it is false to say that it has made it to the International Court.On the basis of this I have to say it is quite clear that the "evidence" jester referred to is a figment of his imagination, as is his assertion that it has met the requirements to be accepted by the International Court. Jester then should apologise for his baseless attacks on Brian and on Winace.

I am really amazed that the working of the International Court is such a vague concept, unlike our court systems, you cannot just file a suit randomly, for no reason, and in Egypt you do not file a lawsuit of this magnitude without the goverments backing, this court handles disputes between nations and Euopean memebers and E.U law. They did not walk into the court with a copy of the torah. They have several boxes full of "evidence", what it is, we will see, but it was enough to document a case in the same court that prosecutes War Criminals and dictactors
The administrateors of told people here time after time to stay on subject and I am amazed how many times I ask the original question and how many times I get nothing but diversion back. If you want to talk about this lawsuit fine, it exist you can't deny it and the evidence that the Egpytians have,helps lay historical evidence to what he said was a fairy tale.If you read Dutch or Ararbic you can get a lot more information on this, because it effects us more here and the level of news coverage it recieved was more here and in the local Arabic newspapers, I could fax the copies of the papers and post them on a different thread, but until then, why don't you answer the question of this topic?And Mannuthus,
I have tried to answer some of you questions, but unfortunatelty I have tried to stick to the topic I presented at the start of this. I dont like playing these little games of diversion to get away from issues. You nor I have a greater or a less understanding of science , we just have a different one, it is just you assert yours is the right one while I assert that how you interprete the evidence is based on numerous things besides the evidence. I am not sure what your scientific background is, or where you get you research material from, or what your field experience is, but I can guarentee it is vastly different than mine.You assert that because I did not reach the same conclusions you did, I did not do the research.Analogies are made to you to emphasis points and you distort them to make fun and critize. You attack the bible on simple translation errors " cud chewing rabbits" without finding out what the original text said. Yes my opinions are great for me, I explained what they were based on, post 12 , 14 20 21 and 30, and I tried to explain to you before, the questions intrigued me so much I have deliberately made my life fit into a style that I can travel and work in the locations I can do field research and see the varied ways throughout the world that this evidence is found and presented. yet you disregard them to make a snide comment that "then what you base your claims on i.e. the bible (and its supposed veracity)" (post 50) which is nowhere even close to what I stated. You say that winace is the only one that said the original topic was proof, and on that point you are correct, however you avoid that that distasteful duty that all Evolutionist seen to hate, you avoid discrediting one of your own by saying that it is in error. You have never directly answered the question, you have danced around it more than a politician on a tax raise, but never once directly addressed it.

The workings of the International Court are irrelevant. The suit has not been filed nor do we know where it will be filed IF it ever is.
There is NO support for your assertion that they have enough evidence for the International CourtThere is no evidence backing from the Egyptian Government (the backing comes from Egyptians resident in Switzerland).They ARE relying on the Bible (or rather the Torah) as evidence.They probably know that there would be serious political problems if the Israeli government tried to deny the accuracy of the Torah - so the only problem is getting a court to accept it as admissable evidence (which is apparently a problem).

you guys are really amaazing, first, there was no lawsuit, then it was a joke, now it only involves the swiss egyptians.

Strictly speaking there is no lawsuit - it has not yet been filed.
But who was it who said that there was no lawsuit in any sense ? Not me.It may be a joke but I think it is more likely a stunt - the real target is the Israeli use of the Torah to justify their claim to the land of Israel. The whole point is to *lose* in way which discredits such a use of the Torah - but they won't get that unless they rely on the Torah - which is exactly what all the reports say that they will do.
But who was it who said that it was a joke ? Not me.About the only thing you get right - and you're not even 100% right on that - is my point that the action is being backed by Egyptians living in Switzerland. A fact that can easily be found by looking at the news reports.And so far the only attempt to actually provide evidence is to refer to two articles which in fact support your opponents. Want to explain why you did that ? Did you not realise what the articles actually said ? Or were you just trying to bluff us ?

you guys are really amazing, first, there was no lawsuit, then it was a joke,first you said it was only this one lawyer, now it only involves the swiss egyptians. They are not relying on the Torah, you state things as "facts" when you have no clue of the issue to begin with, and the point of this was not the lawsuit, the point of this was things you dismiss as fairy tales, are very real to others, including up to the level of international courts and countries.
Do you have the schedule or the docket of this court, have you read the Telegraf here in the netherlands for the information? But you claim things as "facts". The Egyptian goverment is invloved, there is no way they would miss out on this,and the monies belongs to the "goverment" of Egypt, not the Swiss Egyptians. But again you state things as fact that you have no knowledge about.
You have gone from this being a joke, you were proved wrong, to have have no 'support" for my statments, yet you make statement after statement that you have no knowledge on.You cite an article a week old that is quoting a story a month old and that you use as proof that nothing has happened during this that time. I think you choose this last article to help you distort the truth , to help you imply that this is only a week old, it is a repeat of earilier articles that are now gaining attention because it reached the courts, this link it dated in August http://www.cfxweb.net/civax/archives/00000180.htm
so is this one
Page not found - WND if you want to read an abbreviated version of the interview the the man himself go here:
Egyptian Jurists to Sue 'The Jews' for Compensation for 'Trillions' of Tons of Gold Allegedly Stolen During Exodus from Egypt | MEMRI
its a short version of the complete interview, that took place on the 9th of August, over a month ago, the link to the complete interview is there under flagnote number one, all you need is a Arabic translator, there he lays out all his proof and documentation, not just the torah, and he states clearly that at that time of the interview, Aug 9th, that the lawsuit was already filed. I am sorry you live in a news void, I dont.I could get the reference article for you and translate, but I am sure you would accuse me of lying or some other error, so the article from the man himself, with his evidence this there, in its original language for you to translate and investigate. This not me saying this, it is him and his team of lawyers. ( But I am sure you will find some other way to dismiss this, I have "faith " in you.)And yes it is important and yes it does have significant impact, and I think that scares you on a deep level, because if he has the evidence that he claims he has, and it is brought out in court, the historical proof and international recognition of the "exodus" would shake your "bible" agruements to their very core. Thats why you belittle this so much.You just seem to like to distort these facts to delittle a point, and the point is that another "fact " presented by the "experts" here is not a fact at all,it is their "opinion" and there is other evidence out there to consider and it is still very open for debate.
And this is all besides the point that you still haven't answered the original question!!!

In order for a thread to be successful it takes the efforts of most of the participants, not just a few. I think there are a couple of good lines of discussion here, but neither of them are related to the original topic and so should be moved to other threads and forums, and there are other guideline violations. For these reasons I will move this thread to the Free For All forum.------------------

--	Percy
	EvC Forum Administrator

Thread moved here from the Evolution forum.

Paul may be media starved but you seem to be hallucinating.The endnote reference for the original interview in 'Al-Ahram Al-Arabi' does not provide a link, simply a reference. Their website is at http://arabi.ahram.org.eg/ perhaps you could direct me to the interview?In one of the translated excerpts of the interview Dr Hilmi says "The value must be calculated precisely in accordance with the information collected, and afterward a lawsuit must be filed against all the Jews of the world, and against the Jews of Israel in particular, so they will repay the Egyptians the debt that appears in the Torah." That doesn't sound as if they have already filed. This Reuters report, from September the 11th, says that Hilmi has still not filed his claim and has not yet given details of which court he intends to file it in.[This message has been edited by Wounded King, 09-17-2003]