Taxes

so very angry... This is america, where you can work hard and succeed.

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You think that regressive taxes are fair? I pay proportionally MORE out of my income for SS and Medicare than a rich person, and that is fair?

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Are you not reading what I write?

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Proportionally nothing. Pay for yourself and stop expecting others to pay for you. If you work hard you CAN succeed. if you're so oppressed move to canada, that way someone else can pay for you.

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Since big money benefits the most from having good roads and national defense, they should pay the most.

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wtf?

I support campaign finance reform.

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But it's still their money. Do you deny this fact that it's their money? I still say it is the right of a parent to pass on their benefits to their children.
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I don't deny any of this.

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Then stop bitching about how steve forbes got private schooling because his parents wanted something better for him.

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Those who benefit the most should pay the most.

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Actually, people who have the most before taxes still have the most after taxes.

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THEY SHOULD!!!11 what's the point of making money if the government is going to drop you below someone else through taxes, Why would I work hard unless I made more money? that is the stupidest thing i have ever heard. would you like the highest income earners to have 50K after taxes? Maybe everyone should just be paid the same salary, and we should live in a communist state. Seriously, why don't you go live in a socialist republic somewhere?

Some people earn more than they get.Some people get more than they earn.To want far more than that of your needs is greed.Moose

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what's the point of making money if the government is going to drop you below someone else through taxes,

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Oh.I think I understand you now.You must think that a person's status or importance or worth is directly related to how much money they have in relation to how much everyone else has.Otherwise, you wouldn't be so concerned about "dropping below someone else.How sad and shallow.

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Why would I work hard unless I made more money?

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For the satisfaction of doing meaningful work which benefits others as well as myself?That's why I work hard.

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that is the stupidest thing i have ever heard. would you like the highest income earners to have 50K after taxes?

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No.

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Maybe everyone should just be paid the same salary, and we should live in a communist state. Seriously, why don't you go live in a socialist republic somewhere?

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I like capitalism. I think that well-regulated capitalism is the best system around.The problem with capitalism is that it encourages your "I'm gonna get mine, keep as much of it as I can and screw everybody else" attitude.Some people's shallow, small, mean human tendency to worship at the altar of capitalism and money with little or no regard for the rest of the people in the community they live in is why capitalism needs to be regulated.Why don't you go live in a feudalistic society where the haves rule over the have-nots?

Beautifully put, Moose.

Not that I necessarily disagree, but doesn't this ignore some important questions? Like who decides the value of your labor? Or who decides the extent of your needs? Capitalism in a free society has individuals making their own decisions about these things, assisted by feedback from the marketplace and operating within the constraints of the legislative and regulatory framework.--Percy

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You must think that a person's status or importance or worth is directly related to how much money they have in relation to how much everyone else has.

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Otherwise, you wouldn't be so concerned about "dropping below someone else.

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that is the stupidest thing i have ever heard. would you like the highest income earners to have 50K after taxes?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------No.Then wtf does this mean?

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Actually, people who have the most before taxes still have the most after taxes.

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sounds like you think its somehow unfair that the rich stay rich after taxes. I'm not talking about the means of which they got it. That's another part of the discussion. I'm asking why you think the people with the most should have less than the most after taxes?

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Otherwise, you wouldn't be so concerned about "dropping below someone else.

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How sad and shallow.

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When i said dropping below someone else i meant in income levels. THe amount of money earned in a year after taxes.Yeah I may be shallow, but at least i admit that human quality instead of hiding behind a set of ideals.

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I like capitalism. I think that well-regulated capitalism is the best system around.

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The problem with capitalism is that it encourages your "I'm gonna get mine, keep as much of it as I can and screw everybody else" attitude.

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You like capitalism because it forces a healthy and productive economy to pay for you.That's why capitalism works. Humans are selfish, but at least under capitalism hard work is rewarded, unlike in a communist state where you see the same salary regardless of your work. [quote] Some people's shallow, small, mean human tendency to worship at the altar of capitalism and money with little or no regard for the rest of the people in the community they live in is why capitalism needs to be regulated.Why don't you go live in a feudalistic society where the haves rule over the have-nots? [/quotes]The beauty of capitalism is that it allows constant fluctuation between the haves and have nots allowing those who work to raise their social status and pass on their gifts to their progeny.

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To want far more than that of your needs is greed.

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Moose

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Then you are greedy. Do you need a computer? do you need an internet connection. I'm sure you could live on smaller salary.Please do not take this the wrong way. Humans are greedy. Capitalism allows for progression and new innovations. Socialism does not - why work harder if the number doesn't change on your paycheck? You may preach about the good of society, however, it will never work. People are selfish. Communism ( in its ideal form ) is perfection. People have a desire for more. Greed is the engine of progress and a healthy society overall. There will always be poor. Regulated capitalism allows those poor to raise themselves.[This message has been edited by Winston Smith Asriel, 03-14-2003]

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sounds like you think its somehow unfair that the rich stay rich after taxes.

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Absolutely not. Where on earth did you get that idea?Hey! Are you finally admitting that the rich DO stay rich after taxes?

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I'm not talking about the means of which they got it. That's another part of the discussion. I'm asking why you think the people with the most should have less than the most after taxes?

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The thing is, the people with the most still do have the most after taxes. What gives you the idea that they don't?

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When i said dropping below someone else i meant in income levels. THe amount of money earned in a year after taxes.

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Well, OK, but what does this have to do with anything? People who earn more than me end up with more money after taxes, and people who earn less than me end up with less money after taxes.

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Yeah I may be shallow, but at least i admit that human quality

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Ha! I was right, then.One of the great things about being human is that we can choose to rise up above our baser destructive tendencies and have ideals and morals and ethics.You might want to look into that.

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instead of hiding behind a set of ideals.

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LOL! Yes, having ethical standards, values, and "ideals" is all a sham. It's a way to hide our "true nature" behind all of that "morality" silliness.I mostly don't disagree with you regarding capitalism. The beauty and flaws of capitalism, however, are not under discussion.

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so very angry... This is america, where you can work hard and succeed.

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So, you utterly deny that discrimination exists, in any form?Like I said, you are naieve.

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A: quote: You think that regressive taxes are fair? I pay proportionally MORE out of my income for SS and Medicare than a rich person, and that is fair?

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Are you not reading what I write?

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Proportionally nothing.

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So, you believe that regressive taxes are perfectly fair. That means that people who earn less get a bigger proportional chunk taken out of their incomes than people who earn more.Please explain to me how you justify ignoring the impact of a tax.

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Pay for yourself and stop expecting others to pay for you. If you work hard you CAN succeed.

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More pie in the sky idealism from someone who has never had to earn a living.Currently, only certain types of people are allowed to succeed in this country, regardless of hard work. It is getting better through the hard work of equal and civil rights activists, but it is far from wonderful.

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if you're so oppressed move to canada, that way someone else can pay for you.

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I'd rather be a part of change in this country.

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A: quote: Since big money benefits the most from having good roads and national defense, they should pay the most.

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Roads are crucial to how people and goods move around this country. The auto industry benefits a great deal by how the roads are taken care of, as do all of the shipping companies and manufacturers.Big Business benefits greatly from a strong armed forces so they can move into international markets. McDonalds and Coke and all of the tobbacco companies, for instance, probably wouldn't be in as many countries as they are if it weren't for diplomatic or military intervention by our government.

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Hey! Are you finally admitting that the rich DO stay rich after taxes?

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I'm not admitting anything, that's a fact. I'm asking you why you think they shouldn't still be rich after taxes.

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The thing is, the people with the most still do have the most after taxes. What gives you the idea that they don't?

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Well, OK, but what does this have to do with anything? People who earn more than me end up with more money after taxes, and people who earn less than me end up with less money after taxes

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They should. I still don't understand why you said this or somehow think this is relevent.

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Ha! I was right, then.

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One of the great things about being human is that we can choose to rise up above our baser destructive tendencies and have ideals and morals and ethics.

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You might want to look into that.

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I don't need the government to tell what is moral and what is not. I have morals. It is not wrong to make money, and it is not wrong to wish to keep that money if it is rightfully yours. I choose not to kill, and not to steal. To better one's lot in life is not evil.

Hi schraf. I'm actually not joining the discussion here, but I do have a question.Historically, once a society "progresses" beyond the tribal-level hunter-gatherer, pastoralist, or swidden agriculturalist level, inevitably somebody gets screwed. Once the society reaches the level of a state, it's usually a whole bunch of somebodys getting screwed. You and Winston are arguing against the other's position, but I confess to being a tad confused as to what you are advocating for as a means of addressing income inequality, rent-seeking behavior, and all the other ills that most of our experiments in open-market capitalism are heir to. I mean, what is the realistic alternative? Is there one? If not, how can the current system be made more fair? You get the drift.(edited 'cause I kant spel)[This message has been edited by Quetzal, 03-17-2003]

Well, I dunno if anybody still checks in here its been a while. But I will take a shot at answering your question Quetzal.First, liberty over state. That is the freedom to live and prosper and keep what is yours.Second. Hard work. The beauty of capitalism is that one may climb the social ladder to better one's quality of life.As an extension of the previous point, I would like to say that minimum wage should be increased for those over 18. This would allow those members of our society who do work to be rewarded. I say over 18 because the youth or minor doesn't require funds to live on, only funds to use as expendable income.Third. Low taxes and private organizations. Instead of expecting the government to provide for everything we should explore areas of the private field. Often the private field does a job better and more efficient.Fourth, cut spending. Tax cuts are great but without reducing spending they only worsen the defecit. a toilet seat does not cost $100.And finally, enforce campaign finance reform in order to prevent a aristocracy from forming in this nations government although i fear it already has.

Been thinking about taxes for a while now, thought I'd jump in. I think before you disparaged a poster for "hinding behind ideals." Your ideas of capitalistic economies are, unfortunately, idealistic as well. If capitalism actually worked like this it would indeed be great for everyone. Unfortunately it is the poor who work the most and generally, the rich who work the least. It's almost axiomatic. Your ideals don't seem to explain the "idle rich."Progressive taxes make sense because being rich is unfair for a number of reasons. Contrary to conservative rhetoric, being rich does mean (in an indirect way which I shall explain) taking something away from the poor. Consider that, rich or poor, the price of bread is the same. If you're poor, basic needs cost a significantly greater portion of your income. For instance, in most places in America, a one-bedroom apartment costs some 50-75 percent of the net income of one adult working 40 hours a week at minumum wage.Why does it cost so much? Because in a seller's market (as rental housing has been for much of our history - in fact the lack of affordable housing is easily the greatest unheralded crisis of our time) where the poor and the middle class compete in the same market, the tendancy is for landlords to price rentals well out of the affordability range of poor people, because there's more than enough middle-class people looking for a place to live, and the poor can't compete with their ability to pay more. To a lesser extent, this is true of all markets where the poor compete with the rich and middle class. Sellers set prices out of the reasonable range of the poor because they know they can always sell to the rich and middle class.To sum up, the rich and middle class, simply by acting and spending in the same market economy as the poor, cause economic consequences that are heavily disadvantageous to the poor. Therefore it hardly seems unreasonable for the more wealthy to pay a greater share of taxes to offset their economic influence.Raising the minimum wage is inflationary and ultimately, useless in helping the poor. Personally I favor strict rent controls. The rental market is heavily weighted in favor of landlords and as such, responds almost glacially to economic change. (Consider that, in the face of years of economic downturn, rents remain at a record high.) Thus the rental market needs to come under strict government control.As an interesting aside, the idea that the rich pay the large majority of taxes is compelling, but most of the stats I've seen supporting that premise take into account only federal income tax. When state income and social security taxes are factored in, the distribution is more equal - the federal income tax is set up to be over-progressive to offset state taxes that are much less so. From what I've read, if you divide taxpayers in every state into five groups by income, each fifth pays about 20 percent of all taxes. Which, to me, isn't progressive enough.------------------
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