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Author Topic:   Religion: a survival mechanism?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18349
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 4 of 81 (189595)
03-02-2005 5:52 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Parasomnium
03-02-2005 5:22 AM


Survival or Surrender? The science of religion
I read that article and found it intriguing. Back in the day when me and my friends ingested hallucinogenic drugs and mushrooms, we often transcended the realm between self and "oneness." The experience was different from my "born again" epiphany which happened some years later, but I must admit that God is totally a belief and faith that I have embraced.
Guardian Unlimited writes:
"If you talk to a shamen who takes a substance so they can enter into the spirit world, they don't think that diminishes the experience in any way,"
I would agree except to also state that no substance can properly be proven to enhance the spirit world in any way. The spirit world is by definition a world of acceptance and belief.
Does this mean that it is a product of imagination? I do not believe so, but that is just me.
Check this link: Religion Is a Virus – Mother Jones
I don't agree with it, but it is controversial!
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 03-04-2005 08:47 AM

This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18349
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 32 of 81 (189986)
03-04-2005 6:37 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by joshua221
03-03-2005 7:13 PM


The pharmacological science of a bout with spirits
Prophex writes:
Strange, but what do you mean by transcended the realm between self and oneness? Isn't that just an effect of the drugs, not really going outside yourself?
Quite logically, yes.
Additionally, I believe that mind altering substances provide a sort of a fertilizer that opens the mind up to alteration on a spiritual level. In other words, from a faith/spiritual perspective, I was allowing myself to be possessed.
From a strict science perspective, the drugs caused synesthesia between my senses. I "heard" colors and "saw" sounds.
This also explains the effects of opiates on the system in that one actually feels outside of ones body and is thus able to deal with the pain from a detached perspective.
The addiction is physical and psychological.
From a spiritual warfare perspective, we will have to discuss THAT in another thread, Prophex. All that I can say is that I was young and naive. All that I gained was an understanding of how one feels when gripped by drug addiction.
I do not think that spirituality is a mere perception caused by dopamine receptor manipulation, but I also believe that there is much that science does not know about an "open" mind.

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 Message 15 by joshua221, posted 03-03-2005 7:13 PM joshua221 has replied

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 Message 75 by joshua221, posted 03-08-2005 10:25 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18349
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 42 of 81 (190028)
03-04-2005 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Brad McFall
03-04-2005 10:38 AM


BradSpeak: The emotion BEHIND the logic.
Yes, yes look into it!
One thing you find is that one's notion of genetical continuity, no matter the group(,) is somewhat tied to one's feelings about the recent history of physics. If you think you can talk about what is taken advantage of in the "next" generation, biologically (of religion, fetishes, taste of food, spice etc) then it seems odd, to have said ("than") that you think by simply making the kind of "blanket" statements that you (do""),,, retain, any gains that Jammer narrated, as linked @Renouvier to Poincare to Bohr to Feynman say... without dealing with Kierkegaard! There are ending possibilities indeed. They/that would be just fine for a physicist but as soon as you notice Kierkegaard in the discussion it is impossible to NOT deal with creationist issues. Now if you were Gould then perhaps you might think that you indeed carried through a biological carrier in which you simply found creationism as a CONTRADICTORY opposite. I find nothing of the sort. That is why if you can’t find the means to talk with me over coffee say we can not even get on with any communication we might disagree about.
You insist it seems, that I must be able in one sentence or two to communicate something that is up against the whole trend of modern science and do it as convincingly as the last 100yrs of scholarship combined. I can't, even if I wanted and it was physically possible. So love is called for. I have no problem if you want to think you might be thinking like I think Gould might have been thinking but I really CAN engage a discussion of why I think this discontinuous and digital question is a mistake. It was a mistake when APPLES' computers first appeared on the Cornell campus and we were only using the mainframe and it is the same drag; and drop-today.
Jammer links rejection of actual infinity, to, a conceptual philosophy of science, to Poincare's denouncement against giving up differential equations, to,, the difference of kinematics and dynamics; from newer considerations on identity but co-opts, the Lucretian exiguum clinamen principiorum rather for goals I think can not be, intellectually sustained, as biological trajectories of reproduction-educate-students, about,,, the/ transitivity/of/genetic transmission. I’m stuck with that. You don’t need to be. Be free. ()
That is easier for me to write then yes and no"" to specific questions. I know you might not understand it so that is why I often, DONT post.
If you require actual rope to "tie" it in with, well then, I obviously can not satisfy you there. ()
If you can’t see that modern science has been depauperated since the founding of nuclear physics I cant help you on that level. I can always just chat however.
Brad, After reading this post three words stood out.
Love I understood.
Depauperated ? What is that? I am going to tie you to this definition with virtual rope!
As for Kierkegaard, I came up with this:
plato.stanford.edu writes:
For Kierkegaard Christian faith is not a matter of regurgitating church dogma. It is a matter of individual subjective passion, which cannot be mediated by the clergy or by human artifacts. Faith is the most important task to be achieved by a human being, because only on the basis of faith does an individual have a chance to become a true self. This self is the life-work which God judges for eternity.
Is Kierkegaard’s faith appealing to you spiritually?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Brad McFall, posted 03-04-2005 10:38 AM Brad McFall has replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18349
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 67 of 81 (190458)
03-07-2005 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by purpledawn
03-07-2005 11:10 AM


Re: Plain old evolution
purpledawn writes:
Today we assume that man lost immortality, but did he really? Our story is rather crytic, it can be argued both ways, which I think someone is in another thread. IMO, it doesn't imply immortality.
Are you suggesting that the death was a spiritual one only? That even before the Fall, humans would quite naturally die a physical death? You are right in that this is controversial and can be argued from differing worldviews. Being a Believer, I think that the striking difference between A&E and the rest of the animals was that humans alone were the first species to communicate with God. I also believe that it was God who initiated the conversation. Some would argue that the way that humans have behaved over the years, Dolphins should be the spokesman for the planet, rather than humans.

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 Message 66 by purpledawn, posted 03-07-2005 11:10 AM purpledawn has replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18349
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 68 of 81 (190459)
03-07-2005 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by DominionSeraph
03-07-2005 8:29 AM


Fear Factor
DominionSeraph writes:
God was afraid that Man would eat of the tree of life, implying that he could not reverse its effects.
God was afraid??? As if He did not foreknow these developments???

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 Message 69 by jar, posted 03-07-2005 11:40 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18349
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 70 of 81 (190468)
03-07-2005 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by jar
03-07-2005 11:40 AM


Re: Fear Factor
This brings up a point. I realize that my theory cannot be verified objectively, but I must point out that much of Christian Belief is unwritten and is interpreted and agreed upon among believers. One example is the origin of Satan. Milton tapped into a common belief...he did not invent it for his story. Was Genesis written by unbelievers or believers...now THAT is the question!

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18349
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 76 of 81 (190652)
03-08-2005 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by joshua221
03-08-2005 10:25 AM


Religion: Survival of the craziest?
Prophex writes:
I can't see how the drugs provided means for you to be outside of yourself. Sorry if I misunderstood something, but if you can, try to explain what you mean to me. (posted this in school!)
Sure, Prophex! I want to answer you and also try and keep my personal answer to you within the framework of this topic. At EvC, I often wing it with off the cuff responses to various questions posted by the many members! I mean, why are we here?
What is the purpose of our conversations if not to entertain, enlighten, inform, and sometimes annoy each other? I go deeper with some of the EvC members whom I sense are really trying to learn something (Like you and Porcelain) vs just trying to verbally joust with me for the sake of ego!
What does the effect of drugs have to do with religion?
Websters writes:
religion \ri-li-jen\ n 1 : the service and worship of God or the supernatural 2 : devotion to a religious faith 3 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious beliefs, attitudes, and practices 4 : a cause, principle, or belief held to with faith and ardor religionist n
Well, to begin with, a cause such as "getting high" is sometimes an option, a survival mechanism and even a belief that some troubled or naive youth(like I was) and adults embrace.
Some may even argue that a true religious or spiritual epiphany such as the born-again experience that Christians have is nothing more than another chemically induced crutch and endless synapse stimulating loop that humans adapt in order to cope. I do not believe this, but others do.
In my earlier response to you, I pointed out that I believed that my early drug experiences were a form of spiritual warfare. I just did not know it at the time. I hope that you and Chris stay away from that stuff, but you may know some friends that are caught up in it.
Indeed, from the viewpoint of a parent, is it any worse for your teenager to be hooked on religion (in the framework of a manipulative and controlling church) or on Marijuana? To me, Jesus is not like a drug. He is the source of life, and there is nothing wrong with being hooked on a source...is there?
Some would say that nobody wants to be hooked on anything! Well..what about oxygen. Does anyone object to being hooked on that?
To get back to answering your question, I was obviously never outside of myself. This is basically impossible, although some shamans claim to practice astral projection. I am skeptical as to what it is that they are REALLY going through.
There used to be a humerous quote that said that "Reality is for people who can't handle drugs." The other day, I counseled a young man who had just come off of a methamphetamine binge. He was twitching, he was thin, and he was confused. He was faced with handling both a withdrawl from drugs and dealing with reality that if he wanted to change, he needed to lose his life in order to find it.
I did not "preach" to him, but I was and am there for him if he needs anything.
Survival is about knowing when to fight and when to surrender.
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 03-08-2005 13:30 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by joshua221, posted 03-08-2005 10:25 AM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by joshua221, posted 03-09-2005 7:31 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18349
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 79 of 81 (190836)
03-09-2005 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by joshua221
03-09-2005 7:31 PM


Re: Religion: Survival of the craziest?
Prophex, do you find that homework is fun? I remember that when I was in school, homework was usually boring rote memorization that did not kindle my interest. It was a discipline to be able to learn the terms and the concepts behind them.
When I graduated from High School, I was forming a sort of a social life with all of my friends from school and in the neighborhood.
I went to parties and hung out doing nothing useful while at the same time preparing to go to college.
Looking back, if I had it to do over again, I would have taken no more than 3 college courses per semester and worked part time. This way, I would still have somewhat of a social life yet I would not waste so much time. Some of my stoner friends from 25 years ago are STILL stoners and they really are not that much fun to be around any more.
You can learn some mind expanding concepts and methods of thinking by going to college. You can also learn some things from the uneducated adults in the neighborhood who just have wisdom from surviving and learning from the mistakes that they have made in life.
Don't ever feel that you are trapped. As long as you make the time for yourself to learn and grow, you will learn and grow.
You and Chris are smart! The challenge for you guys is to believe in yourselves and in the purpose and destiny that you have while on this planet. It is far too easy to get a laborer job and slum it with your friends for ten or twenty years while trying to figure life out. It is far better to keep pushing the envelope...stay in school, get part time jobs as you get older and maybe then you could go to the state college on student grants or loans. Keep thinking! If you party at all, keep it to a minimum!
BTW I respect your Dad! Tell him that I am praying for him and that I know that he will continue to do well in life as he has already done. With two sons like you and porcelain, he is "mos def" blessed!
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 03-10-2005 13:39 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by joshua221, posted 03-09-2005 7:31 PM joshua221 has replied

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