Why Theists do believe

In the thread, "why atheists don't believe", Fallacycop writes the following. This topic is not just against him, but against the notion that we as believers, believe to comfort ourselves.I shall explain why this is not so. This is what we should do, yes. The enemy, (according to our belief), wants us to give up on faith, because Revelation says that the overcomers shall be written in the book of life.But as far as I know, only none-believers claim this is the reason we believe, generally, so that they can argue that belief is just some comforter-mechanism.Tough times aren't the reason why we believe. If I didn't believe, I'd just forget jumping the hurdle and give up, and take things easy.If I am confronted with a good work I don't want to do because of people's ingratitude, then surely I will not do it right? Wrong! I can only do it because I have faith. If I had no faith I would surely think atheistically and not do it. This is of unbelief, and I observe these actions in all of my unbeliever-family. For that is their exact reaction, and even that they don't bother with good works at all!I am a believer.Since faith is a form of hope, then when times get tough, hope dwindles naturally, and faith becomes harder to have. The whole idea is that tough times get us down, according to biblical theology, because the enemy wants to remove our belief so we can murmur against God, " God, you're not there, you don't exist because I'm hungry ".Since atheists aregue this line everyday then it is obvious that this is so, for their reasoning always begins thus;" If there was a benevolent God, then this that and the other wouldn't be happening. "If you were to go into the desert without water, don't tell me it wouldn't be hard to believe God would somehow provide. Well then, if God exists, where is my water? I shall die, I shall doubt, I shall panic, I shall reason as an unbeliever reasons and the enemy wants that exact thing, so that finally I can sit down and say, " A benevolent God wouldn't allow me to suffer, or anyone to suffer, or bad things to happen, I am now atheist because of these hurdles".Did Christ do this? No, he was not tempted by the enemy, so he didn't reason doubtfully, because he isn't of unbelief like you are.So then, the father of lies suggests that I believe to comfort myself, yet in comfort I have believed. Why is it him that suggests it? because anyone who says a doubtful unbelieving thing about God, is speaking FROM sin, and FROM the enemy. For the things of unbelief are what the enemy is all about.The children of darkness are wiser than the children of light; they have science and knowledge of all things, and I cannot beat them. But Christ in the believer, can beat them, because he is wiser.You see, the passage doesn't say that the children of darkness are wiser than THE LIGHT. It only says they are wiser than the children of light.So we believe because of God; that we are convinced Christ is the truth; NOT by any natural urges, where sin comes from. Not from any comfort-mechanism.(F+B. The length is required.)

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

Again, my personal observations have been the oposite of that. What I have seen is that people that have been through poverty, hunger(have you ever seen that?), illness, are the ones that keep crowding the churchs, while people that have been having a good life don`t show up for the prayers just as often.

I'd have to agree with FC - many religious cults find that their members are at their weakest and easiest to recruit when they are down on their luck. Others turn to god as a last resort in times of crisis.

The fact that you would behave selfishly without your faith in God does not make actual atheists selfish. The fact that the rest of your family are selfish and 'unbelievers' doesn't make atheists as a group selfish either.It also seems strange to kick of off a thread complaining about someone misrepresenting the basis of your beliefs by doing exactly the same thing by claiming that essentially all atheists are such because of the question of evil/suffering.TTFN,WK

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The children of darkness are wiser than the children of light; they have science and knowledge of all things, and I cannot beat them. But Christ in the believer, can beat them, because he is wiser.

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Well a) where does this concept of "knowledge of all things" come from and b) are you claiming that Science comes from "Darkness" or satan?

Blessed are the poor in spirit for they shall inherit the earth / harder for a rich man to get to heaven than a camel to get through the eye of a needle. The Bible does seem to back up your conclusion FCYou can interpret the data in two ways: desperate people turning to god or desparate people turning to God.Turning to God when all other avenues aimed at filling the void prove fruitless or persist in thinking that the other avenues will fill the void (ie: you are 'rich' and so not desperate enough yet)Edited by iano, : typo

Well fallacycop, Do you know that you cannot deduce anything from this information, pertaining to believers, anyway?For you have assumed that the eagerness for hope, constitutes those who believe, and those that have believed throughout! It doesn't. Their hope is great BECAUSE of a tough situation.--Who I'm talking about: Those who have faith and hope and are tested. (i.e. mature believers)--Who you are talking about -- those who are desperate for a belief because of tough times.Therefore there can be no logical deduction based on your group of people.The enemy, according to our beliefs, wants to make us dependent on anything other than God.If we are talking about those who believe, and have believed, then the desperate masses are no example of why the believer's hope dwindles.The desperate masses are if anything, an example of a world that concentrates on commerce rather than good works, and we could by tomorrow, save them all, if we do as Christ said do. But people aren't interested in doing good for them, or atlest not as interested as they are in themselves.Your personal observation actually proves that a portion of a particular group will have an increased capacity to hope in in tough times.

Read it again;If I had no faith I would surely think atheistically and not do it.How can you take offense when I speak of my own sinful nature?By atheistically, I mean "unbelieving". I am not claiming that all atheists are selfish. I am talking about the nature of unbelief. ([b]Unbelieving actions lead to atheism, but the converse is fallacious. I have not therefore claimed that atheism = unbelieving actions)This thread isn't an attack on atheists. You've misunderstood what I am talking about.There will be believers who do good works, for the reason that they have faith, who are in danger of doing things of unbelief. Since you become an unbeliever if you obey these urges, then to these people I speak of.Do I speak of NWR, who might do a good work as an atheist? No. That would mean that I believe atheism is the enemy. I am dealing with those who believe in this thread. Whether you like it or not, under our theology, things of unbelief are equated with atheism, because it's the same thing. It's not an attack though, but surely you must realise that I follow the theology I believe in.Edited by mike the wiz, : expounding

Huh?What in the world does that mean Mikey?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I`m not assuming anything. Just stating an observation I have made. Who am my(and who are you, for that matter) to diminish the value of somebodies faith just because they happen to have been through tougher times than I have? That`s my point, Thank you.

So if NWR does do good works then what does that make him? No true atheist?How can... co-exist with... Presumably unbelieving actions are themselves things of unbelief?TTFN,WK

But it is actually my point. I am arguing that faith is harder to have in tough times. That group seek faith. It's not the same thing. Exactly. The rich aren't having a tough time. My whole argument is that faith is tough.If they are faithless and seek hope, then they aren't an example of how faith is easy. If they have faith, then who are we to assume that it is easy for them to have it because of packed churches? They could be packing the churches out, in order to find words of hope because of a dwindling faith.

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many religious cults find that their members are at their weakest and easiest to recruit when they are down on their luck.

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Indeed, which is why the Mormons tend to target young, lonely, isolated college freshmen who are away from their families and living on their own for the first time.You certainly don't see them approaching people over the age of 30 in the parking lots of Fortune 500 companies or outside on the sidewalk along 5th avenue in NYC.

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Others turn to god as a last resort in times of crisis.

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Yes, how many times have we been smugly lectured to by believers who say that we will go running back to belief in God the moment we experience a terrible personal trajedy or crisis.The popular, though inaccurate, phrase, "There are no Atheists in foxholes" comes to mind. We hear that one a lot from the believers, as well.This seems to fly in the face of Mike's claim.

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Turning to God when all other avenues aimed at filling the void prove fruitless or persist in thinking that the other avenues will fill the void (ie: you are 'rich' and so not desperate enough yet)

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...so shouldn't it then follow that all athiests who suffer personal trajedy or terrible hardship become believers?