Why Theists do believe

He would be an atheist who does good works(biblically, sin is the problem and we all have it, so I consider everyone equal). But unbelief is equated with atheism, because all atheists are unbelievers. So even a believer can do an unbelieving action, by doubting and murmuring against God etc. Likewise, an atheist can do the opposite, by doing things of God. (Patience, humility, faith, hope, charity, long suffering).YET it's just a reality that All atheists are unbelievers. Are you guys so against me that you'd argue against such an obvious truism? Then I suggest you are against me because I am a Theist, and I exist. It's not an offense to you, it's just the theology I observe; that atheism is what the enemy actually seeks believers would become, through unbeleiving minds. That's all. I can if you want, only mention "unbelief".

quote:

---

I am arguing that faith is harder to have in tough times.

---

How many times have believers explained a terrible trajedy by saying "Oh well, it was the will of God, and we are not to understand God's ways, but since we know God is good, the horrible pain I am going through right now is for the best."?I mean, come on, mike.What a perfect way to keep people believing; tell them that even if what is happening to them is terrible, it's really good because God's ways are unexplainable.It's like the abusive boyfriend or parent; "I beat you because I love you."It's a cop out. A way to ease the pain and feel like your big parent in the sky is in control and has your best interests at heart.It's childish at it's heart.What is more difficult is to choose the adult way of dealing with life. We are on our own and any comfort or help with coping with life we need to get from each other or ourselves.And it's also important to realize that many, many things happen for no reason at all. Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

They must be more cunning than the JW's then who called for a second time in as many months yesterday (the Sabbath no less!) Compared to EvC it was a walk in the park.(that's a compliment to the opposition at EvC by the way)

If they have a means of escape from it then no. I've dealt with enormous difficulties in my life with all sorts of things - before I ran out of options. Well, I didn't run out exactly - I tried enough of them to see that even though there were many other options left in order to escape I had enough experience to know they wouldn't do what they said on the tin.Hitting a dead end is not the same as acknowledging it. The AA programme begins at that point.Also it is true that God won't call forever. The day you die is the day you fate is certainly sealed. But it can be sealed earlier - long before you die. An heart can reach absolute zero where the life of God is extinguished out of it forever. There is no more callingI understand Peter Sutcliffes eyes (the Yorkshire Ripper) looked like those of a dead man walking. Lifeless. But who am I to know. God worked a miracle with me so he can with Peter Sufcliffe or Adaolf Hitler too.

Oh, yes, the Mormons are very skillful at entraping the young and vulnerable.

quote:

---

If they have a means of escape from it then no.

​

/snip/

​

Hitting a dead end is not the same as acknowledging it. The AA programme begins at that point.

​

Also it is true that God won't call forever.

---

So, it's actually our fault if an all-knowing and all-powerful being sends us to hell for all eternity?I thought you said that God loved me madly?That sounds like an abusive sort of love.

However, they do come to my door (to be quickly but politely turned away).

I don't know if they say that, but what can I say other than they are stupid? I don't argue it's God.Answer me this; when people suffered, did Christ heal them?when shall you realise the wisdom of God and therefore get back to the truth! Who says that? Not me!I would say that a tought time is evidence of an enemy who wants to tempt you to doubt God can exist. But he is. Your own unbelief is not a measure for the power of God. It is only by faith that you can see him prove himself to you, yet you admitt you were always a cordial fish.Clasp your hands together with intertwining fingers. I would like to know which thumb lands on top, your left or right, if you are willing. I can see that by watching business men who seek to keep the world poor by concentrating on getting a big house rather than creating businesses that would solve world hunger. Oh those adults are so great! Just look at all the starving Africans they keep down! I don't think they're mutally exclusive. One can get help from others and God. Sky daddy is real, it's just that you can't find him with a bunsen burner and a telescope.Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.

Ever a victim of unrequited love Schraf? Excruciating that. That's what he goes through at this moment. His love is such as to go through the most extreme measures it can in order to express itself. He did what he could in order that you would be saved from His justice - which your (and my) actions merit. And save you from His wrath which must be poured out on sin.Its not that you going to Hell means that he is throwing a tantrum because he can't have his way. Because you spurned his love - its that you are going there by default.Love, justice, wrath. All must be expressed. If you reject his Love wanting and reaching to you then fair enough. You will send yourself there.

Besides being classic christian needy/vaguely threatening - your answer just supports Schraf's point!let's look at this a different way:

quote:

---

"I loved her greatly and she did not return that love. She did not know the agony I was going though. I had to go to extreme measures to show that love - that's why I killed her cat and hung it off the porch, to show the depth of my feelings. I didn't want to have to beat her, rape her and lock her in the back bedroom, but she could have been saved from that by falling into line, her actions caused me to do this. It was her own fault this happened by rejecting my love"

---

What a vile evil bully of God you worship. Edited by CK, : editing quote so it indicated Iano as sourceEdited by CK, : Title.

I don't think we can be certain that anyone is going to hell, and it is not right to tell people they are in particular. Christ said that those who boast and say they are righteouss, don't go away justified, but rather the repentant one does.Shraff is agnostic anyway. Technically, she doesn't disbelieve God, she just has a lack of belief AND disbelief because of a lack of knowledge.The seperation of the sheep from the goats also indicates the possibility of those who do good, going to heaven prepared for them. It didn't say that if atheists/agnostics do good, they won't enter in because of that.I hope this doesn't turn into a "unbelievers-burn-in-hell" thread. Seldom do I escape the obtuse findings of the radical christians who preach hell, and think Aristotle is a brand of coffee.Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.

Or God can cheat, rig the game and bend you to his will so he can show off his superpowers.

quote:

---

Exod. 7:3-5

​

But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt, he will not listen to you. Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and with mighty acts of judgment I will bring out my divisions, my people the Israelites. And the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD when I stretch out my hand against Egypt and bring the Israelites out of it."

​

Exod 9:12

​

12 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses.

​

Exod. 10:1

​

Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them

​

Exod. 11:10

​

Moses and Aaron performed all these wonders before Pharaoh, but the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go out of his country.

---

If Hell exists, it is by definition a place cut off from the source of all love, life, and creativity.Mike is right. We send ourselves there. One may ask why God even allowed Hell to exist, but if God is the source, the question is moot.By freely choosing to deny the source, we end up in a place cut off from the source.
AbE:
I DO agree with Mike, though that "Hell" is not the focus of this thread.Edited by Phat, : Change title and add by edit

You have to understand how the heart was hardened. If you run up against an absolute which you refuse to acknowledge, you become hardened by resisting the absolute. It is not the absolutes "fault" for supernaturally hardening your heart. It is your choice to reject the absolute. The hardening is a form of stubborness.

What a dodge!

quote:

---

You have to understand how the heart was hardened.

---

Yes GOD did it - he EXPLICTLY STATES THAT HE DID IT. Does the Bible not EXPLICTLY state that God did it at least Three times? Are we to conclude that the bible is mistaken? or God was unclear in his words?Is this further passage not clear?

quote:

---

Romans 9:17-18
For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth. Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

---

quote:

---

It is not the absolutes "fault" for supernaturally hardening your heart. It is your choice to reject the absolute.

---

How can we have free will if God is doing as you claim - maybe you guys want to get together and get your story straight.Funny how the bible is really clear until it IS really clear and then it's complex.... Here's another passage that says basically the same thing:-

quote:

---

Joshua 11:18-21

​

18 Joshua made war a long time with all those kings.

​

19 There was not a city that made peace with the children of Israel, save the Hivites the inhabitants of Gibeon: all other they took in
battle.

​

20 For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favour, but that he might destroy them, as the LORD commanded Moses.

​

21 And at that time came Joshua, and cut off the Anakims from the mountains, from Hebron, from Debir, from Anab, and from all the mountains of Judah, and from all the mountains of Israel: Joshua destroyed them utterly with their cities.

---

Edited by CK, : No reason given.Edited by CK, : added additional passage