Why Theists do believe

That`s not a literal interpretation of what`s written in there. Once you start making interpretatios, then all bets are off. one might interpret the whole book as just a parable (or even better: A fable)

While many christians will say that various elements of the bible can be read as parables or stories for us to figure out, I'm not sure where we stand if we start to say that bits where God says "I" and speaks in the first person are less than literal!

I've tidied it up so that you can read the way it was intended more clearly. If you still hold the view above then why? A person who is born in a default position is not being bullied. They are free to live as they want fully in agreement (if they have any notion of justice) that they should be punished for everything they do wrong. What's unjust about punishing law breakers? Are our courts bullies for doing the same thing?Wierd worldview you've got going there CK. It appears you want it both ways. "Live as I like and not pay for the consequences of living that way. And if I have to, then the person who doles out the justice is a vile bully"Try that next time your up for not paying your road tax and see if it raises a magistrates eyebrow or two.

It's an entirely wonky example you try to equal that behaviour with - for an equal example - there would be no problem because the magistrate would be able to magic the road tax out of thin air.Moreover

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They are free to live as they want fully in agreement (if they have any notion of justice) that they should be punished for everything they do wrong. What's unjust about punishing law breakers? Are our courts bullies for doing the same thing?

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But we can petition to have laws changed or altered - your system has a dicator who plays to punish us forever for not having the correct emotional response to his "love".

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I don't know if they say that, but what can I say other than they are stupid? I don't argue it's God.

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Then most of the believers (particularly Christians) I have ever spoken with on this board are stupid, because almost all of them have said that in one form or another.

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Answer me this; when people suffered, did Christ heal them?

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Define "heal".

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Who says that? Not me!

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Lots and lots of believers say that in the face of adversity, mike.Lots and lots and lots.

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I would say that a tought time is evidence of an enemy who wants to tempt you to doubt God can exist.

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Again, you are just taking the child's way out by imagining some "enemy" that makes bad things happen, because it is comforting to think that there is some being in control, even of the bad things.It provides the illusion that bad things can be prevented or thwarted by being righteous or by believing better or harder, etc.It's just a post-hoc explanation no different from, "The sun is pulled across the sky by Apollo in his firely chariot."You've just generalized it.

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But he is.

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I see no evidence of that. None, whatsoever.

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Your own unbelief is not a measure for the power of God.

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Your belief is no evidence of the existence of God, either.If God/gods exist, then they are doing a great job of looking as though they don't.

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It is only by faith that you can see him prove himself to you, yet you admitt you were always a cordial fish.

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You have to believe before you will believe.Right, I've heard that before.

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Clasp your hands together with intertwining fingers. I would like to know which thumb lands on top, your left or right, if you are willing.

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Left, presumably because I am left handed.

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I can see that by watching business men who seek to keep the world poor by concentrating on getting a big house rather than creating businesses that would solve world hunger. Oh those adults are so great! Just look at all the starving Africans they keep down!

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That's not what we were talking about, mike, and you know it. Do not turn and run from the conversation.We are talking about individuals dealing with personal trajedy and great hardship and if it is easier or harder to be a believer during such times.It is a comfort to believe that there is a God parent looking out for you and that everything that happens is for the best even though you may not understand how or why.That's why you see this philosophy as prevelant among the desperate and those trying to cope with all sorts of things.

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I don't think they're mutally exclusive. One can get help from others and God.

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But that isn't the topic. Your claim is that it is harder to have belief during times of personal hardship, and you still haven't shown that it is.

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Sky daddy is real, it's just that you can't find him with a bunsen burner and a telescope.

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Yes, you must invent him out from your culturally-influenced imagination to give you security and comfort.And remember, mike, what I said: It's childish to think that bad things happen because of the Boogeyman.

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Ever a victim of unrequited love Schraf? Excruciating that. That's what he goes through at this moment.

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/snip/

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Love, justice, wrath. All must be expressed. If you reject his Love wanting and reaching to you then fair enough. You will send yourself there.

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Your God is sounding quite fraught with human frailty, ian.Are you sure he's all that powerful if he can be emotionally crippled by my rejection?

Lots of Christians use stupid arguments, as I also observe this at this site and elsewhere. What matters to me is that I make sure I don't. I wouldn't say bad things are the result of God because Christ done good things when he was on earth. People asked if he would heal them, and he said, "I will". God's intentions are good. The present situation of suffering, can never been seen past. But when the birth comes the mother forgets because of the joy. What matters is that we trust God, because we believe the enemy wants us to doubt. No, the answer is not to pretend bad things can't happen. I am aware that I am under the same universal laws as everybody else. I do. I believe. you don't, you don't. Yes, that agrees with what I am saying. God's the boss! Or because you are female and think more with the emotional side of your brain.(according to the theory). I thought you were perhaps merely not reading my responses to fallacycop, or that you were simply posting emotionally, and therefore not realizing that I have infact refuted the notions that apparently support the position.Either people don't understand why I have refuted the notion, or they're just getting angry because I have. No! You're making the same error of looking into people in general. I speak of believers, and why we beleive, above all things, and all of the time. Not people who turn to God for hope. Shraff, come now, you know I shall only be polite even if you insist upon being argumentative. I'm quite impervious as to what people think of my belief. Lil miss Shraff, there are a lot of these type of comments in your postages. If that's your opinion, then okay.

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But when the birth comes the mother forgets because of the joy.

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Sorry, but mothers forget because of hormones, and also because of a general tendency for humans to view the past with rose-colored glasses.

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What matters is that we trust God, because we believe the enemy wants us to doubt.

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What you call "the enemy" I call "the rational mind".

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Or because you are female and think more with the emotional side of your brain.(according to the theory).

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Er, my scientist husband is left handed too, and when he folded his hands his left thumb was on top as well.Anyway, what gender brain studies have shown is that women tend to have a larger corpus collosum, which is the structure which connects the two hemispheres of the brain, and in general tend to be more bilateral than men. Men tend to be more unilateral than women, depending upon the task.It is largely cultural training which determines if an individual feels comfortable with, or is even expected or taught to examine or think about his or her feelings.IOW, there's a reason a great deal of passionate, male-authored love poetry comes from Italy and France and not from, say, Finland.

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I thought you were perhaps merely not reading my responses to fallacycop, or that you were simply posting emotionally, and therefore not realizing that I have infact refuted the notions that apparently support the position.

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You are treading on dangerous ground here mike. Have a care treading the fine line of sexist dismissals of a person's position due to their gender.

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I speak of believers, and why we beleive, above all things, and all of the time. Not people who turn to God for hope.

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What's the difference? Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

Hi Mike,I don't want to get between your and schraf's baseball-bat-at-fifty-paces discussion, but I would like to know about this bit: I haven't heard this one before. Left-brain/right-brain issue, yes? Okay, analyze this: I'm right handed, atheist, science-oriented, non-artistic, terrible at math. My left thumb was on top. This means, what, exactly?

I think everybody's left thumb comes out on top. Something to do with chirality, no doubt.

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You have a good argument which I can't refute by scripture alone.In order to discuss literal passages, we must come to consensus on the literal author. Then, we could discuss the personality of this author,(Of course I am taking it that God wrote/inspired the wording)What does it mean to harden a heart, anyway? Perhaps I could start by asking you your opinion.

OK I'm willing to have a go at this.Here are a couple of common versions:

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harden your heart (slightly formal)
to make yourself stop feeling kind or friendly towards someone.

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"You've just got to harden your heart and tell him to leave."

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harden your heart

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to make yourself stop feeling kindness and sympathy.

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He found it difficult to harden his heart completely against his old colleague.

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In both of those example, it seems to a concious decision by an individual to act in a certain (negative) way towards another individual (or group of individuals).Both of those examples would seem to match with my view on the term.

If I recall correctly, left thumb means the person has a tendency for emotion rather than the logic side of their brain. That's all. This could explain why you are good at science but not maths,as the test has no baring on intelligence. This doesn't mean anything in particular, but if a female lands a right thumb that would shock me because they said that it would normally be left for females(this says nothing about men, logically). I've tested four females and they all landed left, three were right handed and Shraff was left handed. Three males, two right, one left. Obviously I have too few examples.I don't know how accurate the test is.I have right thumb on top. All it apparently means is that I have a tendency to think with the side of the brain that deals with logical thoughts. I am not good at science, and cannot retain useless information. This is all I could find

Why is that though? I suspect it's because of my beliefs as there seems to be no other reason now that I am not against evolution. Specifically, I'd say skeptical doubt is not the enemy. Doubt in God is, however, noted as sin in the bible. According to our theology, the enemy wants us to doubt so that it leads to complete unbelief in God.Don't forget, I requested the F+B forum. I am not lieing about beleif in God being tough. I cannot claim it is a comfort to me, because I find my own belief to waver when I am put to the test. I suspect other believers would agree that this happens to them at times.You, as a pyschologist-type, would say it is a comfort-mechanism. I as a philosopher-faith- thingy guy, would say it is a genuine conviction, of itself. I'm sure he is, and I'm sure he's a very good man, but don't volunteer him in a game of chess with a right-thumber. no I'm only kidding, the test doesn't tell us anything about ability, it only apparently tells us about tendency. That's fair enough, I won't tread that line as I stop at cheekiness , and I would only have it that people also observe my reasonings completely, in response to their posts.

Mike, Zhimbo would like me to inform you that the idea that one side of the brain houses the "emotions" and the other the "analysis" is a load of bollocks.