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Author Topic:   A true believer
subbie
Member (Idle past 1284 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 1 of 35 (447515)
01-09-2008 4:16 PM


quote:
Man Cuts Off, Microwaves His Own Hand
HAYDEN, Idaho (AP) - A man who believed he bore the "mark of the beast" used a circular saw to cut off one hand, then he cooked it in the microwave and called 911, authorities said.
***
The Book of Revelation in the New Testament contains a passage in which an angel is quoted as saying: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink the wine of God's fury."
The book of Matthew also contains the passage: "And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell."
Full story here.
My question is, if you believe in a seven day creation a few thousand years ago, why don't you cut off your hands when you use them in sinning?
Faith and belief, please and thank you.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by nator, posted 01-09-2008 7:33 PM subbie has not replied
 Message 4 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 01-09-2008 7:46 PM subbie has not replied
 Message 6 by ICANT, posted 01-09-2008 11:34 PM subbie has not replied
 Message 7 by ICANT, posted 01-09-2008 11:45 PM subbie has not replied
 Message 14 by iceage, posted 01-10-2008 2:32 AM subbie has not replied
 Message 15 by Larni, posted 01-10-2008 4:33 AM subbie has not replied
 Message 32 by HisNails, posted 01-18-2008 10:24 AM subbie has not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1284 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 17 of 35 (447620)
01-10-2008 7:54 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by ICANT
01-10-2008 12:13 AM


Re: Re-Young Earth Creationist
Would I cut my hand off? If it would keep me out of heaven yes. But it will not and can not the only thing that can do that is not receiving Jesus Christ as my personal Saviour.
So Matthew was wrong?

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by ICANT, posted 01-10-2008 12:13 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by ICANT, posted 01-10-2008 10:48 AM subbie has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1284 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 19 of 35 (447744)
01-10-2008 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by ICANT
01-10-2008 10:48 AM


Re: Re-Young Earth Creationist
It seems like the english language around here is a foreign language.
I don't need your snotty language, fella. I guarantee that my English skills are better than yours.
If I read you correctly you are saying Matthew said, If your hand sins cut it off because you can't go to heaven with it. Correct me if I am wrong.
That's the clear implication of the language quoted in the original article. And that implication makes considerably more sense than the KJV version that you're quoting. Simply because your hand offends you, there's no reason to believe such personal offense would keep you from heaven, unless it's also an offense to god.
You rely on this language:
quote:
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
My question then becomes, which one do you believe? It appears that they can't both be correct. Either believing in Christ is enough, or one must also cut off offending/sinning body parts. So again, I ask, was Matthew wrong? If not, was the language you quoted wrong? And how does one generally decide which parts of the bible to believe and which not to? If you think they're both correct, please reconcile them.
subbie, If I remember correctly you don't believe in hell so I can understand you not getting what Matthew said.
Let me lay your mind to rest. I am fully capable of understanding something someone says, even if I don't agree with it.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by ICANT, posted 01-10-2008 10:48 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by ICANT, posted 01-10-2008 8:12 PM subbie has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1284 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 22 of 35 (447804)
01-10-2008 9:36 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by ICANT
01-10-2008 8:12 PM


Re: Re-Young Earth Creationist
I believe both.
I guess you don't place much value in internal consistency.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by ICANT, posted 01-10-2008 8:12 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by ICANT, posted 01-10-2008 11:55 PM subbie has not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1284 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 24 of 35 (448257)
01-12-2008 6:46 PM


bump, to see if anyone wants to try to actually reconcile these contradictions, as opposed to ignoring them.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by jar, posted 01-12-2008 8:17 PM subbie has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1284 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 26 of 35 (448289)
01-12-2008 9:17 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by jar
01-12-2008 8:17 PM


Re: Do you really want a discussion
Well, I was mainly interested in watching literalists tie themselves in knots trying to reconcile the two. But instead, it seems that most of them are laying low, so have at it.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by jar, posted 01-12-2008 8:17 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by jar, posted 01-12-2008 9:22 PM subbie has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1284 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 28 of 35 (448306)
01-12-2008 10:30 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by jar
01-12-2008 9:22 PM


Re: Do you really want a discussion
Well, since it was not meant literally but figuratively, I don't see much of a problem.
Ah, but was it?
Certainly I can understand the force of the directive as an illustration of the need to avoid sin. But, given that it is immediately followed by an explanation, it's much harder to interpret it as figurative.
"And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell."
I assume that you'd agree with the second sentence, that it's better to lose a body part than to go to hell. Or perhaps you don't....
"Sane folk don't cut their hands off and hands don't sin."
True, but the quote doesn't say, "If your hand sins." It says, "If your hand causes you to sin."
In any event, for someone who only takes the Matthew injunction figuratively, this still leaves open the question posed upthread to ICANT, who seems to think that simply believing in christ is enough to get one into heaven. If that's the case, then how can that be reconciled with Matthew, which says, figuratively, that sinning will prevent one from getting into heaven?

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by jar, posted 01-12-2008 9:22 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by jar, posted 01-12-2008 10:43 PM subbie has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1284 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 30 of 35 (448311)
01-12-2008 10:58 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by jar
01-12-2008 10:43 PM


'Splain yourself!
Okay, bible's full of contradictions, and that doesn't bother you. I got no problem with that.
No Get Out of Hell Free Card. I'll buy that.
The quote from Matthew doesn't mean god's looking for self-mutilation in his name. Gotcha. But then, what does the quote from Matthew mean to you?

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by jar, posted 01-12-2008 10:43 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by jar, posted 01-12-2008 11:08 PM subbie has not replied

  
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