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Member (Idle past 5939 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
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Author | Topic: God and the human mind | |||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
sidelined writes: I'm in agreement with Mike and the Brothers here. If I were in class and involved in an experiment, I would use the critical thinking skills that you describe. To use these once I knew that God was/is with me were as innappropriate as using them on you, sidelined. I will admit reading the posts of serious atheists such as are found on Internet Infidels..It is alien thinking for me to question something as obvious as God. I may have felt different before I got saved, however. I need you to tell me if you applied critical thinking to the belief system you accepted. For instance The law of Truly Large Numbers.Confirmation bias.Begging the question.Selective thinking.Esteban writes: You have a point. Like Hangdawg, I agree that it does not matter what is said. I know what I know, and I met Him at one point. It is true that I want Him to exist. Perhaps critical thinkers such as yourself would start out prefering that He did NOT exist. I see what you say about examining my faith critically. I guess that my conclusion is that I would be very uncomfortable without it.(Him) how are believers so sure they're not just seeing whatever they want to see, and how much critical thinking is going out the window in the process? This message has been edited by Phatboy, 09-08-2004 02:39 PM
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Darth Mal writes: This is strictly my opinion, Darth, but I think that in general, God is concerned with the evolution of each individual to the fullest extent of their potential. I believe that God understands you in ways that no human psychologist ever could. Even your close relatives can only scratch the surface of your unique depths of character. Since He understands you so well, He is in one sense unaffected by your free will choices and decisions which deny His existance. His love for your full potential development and fruition towards relationship with Him demands that He cannot ignore you, however. The issue is not your worship of or lack of attention towards Him. The issue is His love for you.(My opinion)
Would you say that god doesn't care if I believe in it or not?
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
So? All this proves is that you value human wisdom above any religious belief.
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes:
Others think much like is described by Pastor John MacArthur:
Many Christians understand that the Bible was written, revised, modified, vetted and interpreted by plain old men, that it was written by people of a given age, for people of a given age and that much of it is limited by their level of knowledge.MacArthur writes:
When something is written down, how can the mind of the author really be judged? How do we determine if the writing is based on limited knowledge or if the writing speaks from the heart?
Is all Scripture inspired by God?All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work (2 Tim. 3:16—17). God’s Word is inspired. Second Timothy 3:16 speaks of the inspiration of Scripture. Inspired is the translation of a Greek word that literally means God-breathed. Every word of Scripture is from the mouth of God! Theologians speak of inspiration as the mysterious process by which God worked through the authors of Scripture to produce inerrant and divinely authoritative writings. Inspiration is a mystery because Scripture doesn’t explain specifically how it occurred. The only glimpse we have is from 2 Peter: Know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God (1:20—21). Interpretation speaks of origin. Scripture didn’t originate on the human level but with the Holy Spirit, who moved upon the authors to write it (v. 21). Moved is the translation of a nautical term that describes the effects of wind upon a ship as it blows against its sails and moves it through the water. Similarly, the Spirit moved on the Biblical writers to produce the Word of God in the language of men. The human authors of Scripture knew they were writing God’s Word, and they did so with confidence and authority. Often they cited or alluded to one another as authoritative agents of divine revelation (e.g., 2 Peter 3:15—16). On a personal level, inspiration guarantees that what Scripture says, God says. It’s His counsel to you; so you can study and obey it with full assurance that it is true and will never lead you astray. For further study, consider this: Often the New Testament affirms the inspiration of the Old Testament by attributing Old Testament quotations to God Himself. For example, compare these Old Testament passages with their New Testament counterparts: Genesis 2:24 with Matthew 19:4—5; Psalm 2:1—2 with Acts 4:25—26; Isaiah 55:3 with Acts 13:34; Psalm 16:10 with Acts 13:35; Psalm 95:7—11 with Hebrews 3:7—11. How might you respond to someone who says that the Bible is merely the words of devout religious men?
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I asked the question of "When something is written down, how can the mind of the author really be judged? How do we determine if the writing is based on limited knowledge or if the writing speaks from the heart?"
jar writes: Well, if we all observe a great work of art, I suppose that we all judge the mind of the artist based upon the artwork. What if we desired to know more of what the artist/author was thinking? Why would anyone judge the mind of the author by anything other than what was written down?jar writes: Good point. I do not try and understand God by reading lots of comparitive religious literature, however. What I get is the different opinions of human authors/philosophers. A GOD that is capable of creating this universe, one that intuitively understand the relationship between gravity and the other forces, is not a GOD that would want us to be stupid. He is not someone who would lie to us just for the fun of it.You all may wonder why I consider the Bible any differently. sidelined writes: Imagine us as two young boys. I say to you that my Dad can beat up your Dad. In fact, my Dad can jump over the house! You, being unsure of whether or not my Dad can actually DO these things, finally conclude that THIS argument is between you and me. Dad is not in it. The issue, then, is whether or not I can jump over the house. Of course, we have the statement that god transcends space-time. What we do not have is evidence to support the notion. This does not mean it is not the case it means that we cannot know either way in which case it is valueless in a discussion.I say that my God can do ALL things. You say that this God of mine is illogical. I then ask you where you came from! Who is YOUR Daddy? You then say that the issue is not about God/Dad, it is about how YOU and I think and perceive the world. Right, Sidelined? Philosophically, the issue boils down to whether we as humans will grow up to understand creation as well as can be understood. Evo's and logical agnostic/atheists think so. Creo's and Christian theists do not. We may well become grownups in our wisdom, yet we are not God. We claim to know our "Daddy". Yet we may not know Him well enough to explain Him to you. I am working on it. sidelined writes: Good point, old chap. However, you and I have never sat down with the author" of Isaiah now have we? Unless, of course, that Isaiah was authored through a human vessel by the Holy Spirit. In which case, we chat in His presence all the time. explain to us uninformed masses, since you have wrapped your mind around the concept,just what you mean by a being that is operating on all dimensions.Or do you mean to say you imagine you have your mind wrapped around the concept? Can you even tell us what you mean by all dimensions? How many would that be?What are they like?Where do we find them? jar writes: Which is why it is good to discuss/debate theology.
When you divorce critical thinking from belief, you open yourself to manipulation by the unscrupulous.riVeRrat writes: Like me, RiverRat feels as if He understands who the Creator is. I am beginning to respect Sidelined, Jar, and a few others, however. You force me to re examine my beliefs. As far as critical thinking goes, it can sometimes be a long process. You can use it to find God, or disprove God in your own mind. Nothing special here. Its just a word. IF people are teaching you how to think, instead of teaching you knowledge and letting you figure it out for yourself, sounds like brain washing to me.I do not feel as though I have been brain washed by religion. I only read the bible, and compared the lessons within to real life, present time, and then was able to see the truth. You know when you know the truth about something? And then someone tells you the truth, the feeling you get? Times that by 1000 and thats the feeling you get when God is awakened in you. Rei writes: Good point, Rei. Let me ask you something. Have YOU ever allowed yourself to believe in a God who can relate to you and you to Him/Her? Just because something makes you feel alive and awake doesn't make it real. Realize that people around the world have been made to feel equally or more alive by their religions, whose beliefs on many subjects may stand in stark oppositions to yours.sidelined writes: Just as WE are today. With all of our understanding, we have but better educated guesses and theories. We STILL do not know. The question is this: Was the human authors of the Bible externally inspired? The author of the bible was human with no actual idea of how the universe began.Darth Mal writes: So would it be better to worship the guys who made the computer? What if they were nerdy and buff? Or should we go a step further and worship the One who made them? Say that you have the choice of either head or tail. My computer randomly pick head. It just happens that I worship my computer. I, then, flip a coin and, out of the 50/50 chance that it could be either head or tail, the coin lands head. I then say, "Amen to my computer!"I was talking about the odds of the bible agreeing with the big bang theory. The Bible was written by humans. The Big Bang theory was formed by humans. Your computer was made by humans....I get your point. We are no better worshipping the Bible than we are worshipping your computer! BUT what about the Original Source?sidelined writes: It is because we (are) so adept at fooling ourselves that it actually is necessary to understand critical thinking.RiverRat writes: But THEY have NOT disproved the Author. I got your point, you once again have dis-proved the bible, congrats!These guys HAVE begun teaching us critical thinking skills, however. That way, we do not blurt out assertions without reasoning. Even if our assertions are scriptural, we need to back them up with our reasoning.
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
sidelined writes: OK. So you are basically saying that forever is too darn long? What of the man born in a family of modest means who never traveled anywhere beyond the family farm. He knew 30 people his whole life until he got drafted. He went to War and died. This poor soul! Did he cease to exist? What would any of us give to have lived just a bit longer? To have seen the advances of the world. To have loved and raised a family? To have accomplished something unique! Even to be able to post in THIS chatroom!! What is the point of his life??? Are you the one who said to me long ago in another post that the point of life is the dance and that we are the dancers? That immortality is passed through our children? Living forever in Heaven will not be unbearable. I will agree with you on one point. We need to live for today and not for a future event.
You know what I would consider to be hell? The promise of eternal life. Sounds good on the surface but endless existence think on it.Say you start with beating methusela and hit a thousand.Now think that much a thousand times over brings us to 1,000,000.Step up to the next level to 1,000,000 of those and we arrive already at 1 trillion years.Multiply again and you are into scientific notation at 1 times 10 to the 18 power.Repeat that as many times as you wish and you will not even show up on the scale of forever.
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Question, do you believe in infinity?
I believe in an infinite God. I cannot fully understand Him for He is beyond my comprehension, as infinity is.
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Great story, sidelined! I love nature! Were it a bear instead of an Elk, I would imagine that prayer would become an automatic response, but then again, who is to say that God was with the dancer that wonderous day? I believe that God is always with us, yet when we are faced with fight or flight decisions, the response is quite automatic.
I read the story of the young man who got his arm pinned by the boulder and of how it took him three days to summon the courage needed to chop it off. He loved the outdoors and he still does. I believe that God was with him and still is. As we all play our roles in the unique and special dance of life, we are called upon to teach the generation after us. How boring would it be if all of us thought exactly how I do or how jar does or how you do? It is our unique individuality that combines together in a communion with the Holy Spirit that makes the production of the sacred dance of life. Sidelined, you are mean't to be a skeptic, for you could not handle the adrenaline rush if God was as obvious to you as He is to me. You are special to His dance, however. You have taught many theists to think critically and to examine the mystery which they lofily preach about yet which they do not begin to understand! Thanks for sharing the feeling of a sacred day in a forest. This dancer is glad that the director was with you that day!
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Hangdawg writes: Neither do you have a reason for your own existence.sidelined writes: I am sorry but I am not sure if this is what you meant to say as of course I have a reason for my own existence. Rene' Descartes (1596-1650). A French philosopher and mathematician who was called "The father of modern philosophy." ... So do you justify your existance by the fact that you exist,sidelined? As Christians, it is hard for us to present God to you becauseThe only thing Descartes found certain was the fact he was thinking. He further felt that thought was not a thing-in-itself, and had to proceed from somewhere (viz., cause and effect), therefore since he was thinking the thoughts, he existed --by extension--also. Hence, "thought" and "extension" were the very beginnings from which all things proceeded, "Cogito ergo sum" (I think therefore I am). His scrapping of previously accepted philosophies marked the beginning of the Man-centered universe beliefs that currently drive Western thought. Isa 55:8 writes: By virtue of our relationship with God, we feel as if though we understand Him somewhat, and occasionally we will say something profound that we know is not our thoughts...but to prove this relationship to YOU is another matter. "For my thoughts are not your thoughts,neither are your ways my ways,"declares the LORD. sidelined writes: It is my belief that time conformed to God...Gods first action was not even measureable because you need another timepoint of reference to measure it by. Gods second action became a point of reference...UNLESS you consider the possibility that God could do an infinite number of things in a single point. How would this be measured without another point of reference? I am the atheist remember? Proving god's' existence is not on my roster. In what manner do you define an existence without time? (And in reply to Hangdawg)an act of creation implies an event which indicates time.Unless you can explain to me how you logically arrive at a assumption that god can act without an event and therefore a time occuring then I must reject your hypothesis.sidelined writes: So, is disproving God on your roster,perchance? Or do you simply enjoy the discussion? Proving god's' existence is not on my roster. This message has been edited by Phatboy, 09-24-2004 05:57 PM
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