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Author | Topic: Original Sin | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Now, the interpetation of Genesis 1 from the conservative and reform Jews is that God set up man on purpose, so he could learn the consequnces of his actions. Without knowledge of good and evil, there could be no free will, and ability to CHOOSE good, to lead a more sanctified life to become closer to God. This is what I have understood to be the case too, even from the orthodox point of view. In fact I have an orthodox Jewish internet friend I pepper with such questions, and this is pretty much the answer he has given me -- and he usually supplies orthodox Jewish websites for reference. So, Randman, do you have some references to Jewish sources that believe in some version of the Fall or OS? This message has been edited by Faith, 01-01-2006 07:17 PM This message has been edited by Faith, 01-01-2006 07:18 PM
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randman  Suspended Member (Idle past 4927 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: |
According to Jewish tradition, the divine prohibition was to give them free choice and allow them to earn, as opposed to receive, absolute perfection and intimate communion with God, a higher level than the one on which they were created. The consequences affected Adam and Eve's descendants. People are not intrinsically condemned and sinful, but nevertheless begin life at a spiritual and metaphysical level inherited from Adam and Eve, far lower than Adam's original level. The course of history is meant to return humanity to Adam's original level, and then allow it to surpass that level by completing the task that Adam failed to complete. The curses and changes imposed on mankind and womankind following their sin are meant to facilitate this return to glory.
Original sin - Wikipedia If one believes mankind fell from a level of glory, that is a form of believing in the Fall, and is clearly the belief of aspects of Judaism. This message has been edited by randman, 01-02-2006 03:05 AM
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randman  Suspended Member (Idle past 4927 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: |
This is almost the exact same position as Arminians like Wesley when they speak of Original Sin, but this is given as a Jewish position.
Adam's action affected all of humankind; if he hadn't sinned, he and all his descendants would have remained in the Garden of Eden. But a child isn't punished for a parent's sins if the child is righteous; Adam's descendants are born innocent, and their rewards and punishments depend on their own deeds. Both Adam and Eve were punished for sinning, but Judaism doesn't regard either men or women as cursed. Clearly, many Jewish beliefs entail the idea mankind has suffered as a result of Adam's sin.
If Adam would have been worthy and would not have sinned, then all of his descendants would have been worthy of the Torah. If not for Adam's sin, all mankind would have had the status of Israel. Because of Adam's sin, however, the Torah was restricted to the small portion of humanity who would eventually be worthy of receiving it. Page not found - aish.com Looks like the first sin did some serious damage to the rest of mankind according to this Jewish site.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
OK, those are good examples, thanks. SOME kind of Fall is hinted at there. I wonder what Ramoss will say about it.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3485 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
There is a difference between the "Doctrine of Original Sin" and saying that Adam's sin affected mankind.
Christian Bible Encyclopaedia 1902 Original Sin, or native depravity, is that whereby our whole nature is disordered, and our inclinations rendered contrary to the law of God. Understanding Catholicism by O'Gorman & Faulkner 2000 The concept of original sin helps to explain how evil can exist in a world created by a good God.... The name "original sin" did not enter into church teachings until the time of Augustine. He identified original sin as a basic yearning for self-gratification that turns people away from God.... During the Middle Ages, the interpretation shifed away from an emphasis on humans' corrupt nature to the break in the relationship with God that Adam caused by committing the first sin. Thomas Aquinas described original sin as a "weakened, disordered precondition." Judaism’s Rejection Of Original Sin does not mean they don't think Adam's actions affected mankind. They do feel it lowered man's status, but they do not believe that man is born into this world in a state of sin.
Jews believe that man enters the world free of sin, with a soul that is pure and innocent and untainted. As ramoss pointed out in Message 77 the Jews do not believe that sin is inherited, which is what is implied by the "Doctrine of Original Sin." The information you shared from the internet shows that Jews believe that Adam's sin affected mankind, not that every person is born sinful, which is what is implied by the "Doctrine of Original Sin." We are equipped with good inclinations and bad inclinations and just as God told Cain.
Genesis 4:7 - Torah Surely, if you do right, There is uplift. But if you do not do right Sin couches at the door; Its urge is toward you, Yet you can be its master. Having a lower status does not mean born with sin. Do you understand the difference? There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. -Edith Wharton
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Jews believe that Adam's sin affected mankind, not that every person is born sinful, which is what is implied by the "Doctrine of Original Sin." Clearly there is a difference between the conceptions, but if "Adam's sin affected mankind" how could it affect us except through inheritance? That something changed in the basic human package with Adam's sin does seem to be implied, whether Jewish theology draws this conclusion or not. And if something in our inherited makeup changed with Adam's sin, and this was a "lower status" isn't this status a status involving our moral capacities, and if so, isn't the doctrine of original sin pretty much implicit here?
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ramoss Member (Idle past 640 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
Let's look at it this way.
Your great grandfather inherited million dollars (which was a lot of money from back then. He, alas, was a gambler, and lost it all, rather than invest it wisely, and also get his kids a good education. The next generation was dirt poor, and had no education.. and was kept down. THe SIN of excess and gambling effected the starting point of the kids.. but they were innocent of the excess and gambling. It is just they didn't have the resources to start out with. SOme of kids managed to earn their way to a reasonable income, but they never were as wealthy as before. Did they inherit the 'sin' of being excessive and a gambler?? Nope. Were they affected by the wastefullness of their father?? Yep. They didn't live in a grandiousmansion when growing up.. but had to earn their living.. as their children did after them.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3485 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
This is my understanding:
Man was created with an equal balance of good and evil. 50/50 After Adam sinned, supposedly evil increased so there was now an imbalance (51/49). So now it is supposedly more difficult for man to overcome his evil inclination, not impossible, but more difficult. Sin, as ramoss explained, means to miss the mark. You can't inherit sin or a mistake. You may inherit the propensity to sin, but that doesn't mean you will sin. I don't see the lower status as dealing with moral capacities, since Adam still made a wrong choice at the higher status. I see it as losing ground. He has to work harder to reach perfection. Rough Example: There is a wealthy family of 5. They are all basicly good people. The father makes a mistake which causes him to loose all his money. Now the rest of the family didn't make any mistake, but they will suffer from the father's mistake. Now that they are destitute, their status in the community has changed. They now have to work harder to survive day to day. This doesn't mean the children inherit their father's mistake, but if they wish to reach the status they had before, they will have to work harder. Adam lost everything because of his mistake, now we struggle day to day to survive and have to work harder to attain perfection. I feel there is more to the Doctrine of Original Sin than just the increase of evil. There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. -Edith Wharton
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3485 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
You did a better job of explaining than I did.
There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. -Edith Wharton
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ramoss Member (Idle past 640 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
It is the same anaology though..
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
The problem is that we're not talking about something like money that we inherit externally, but something that is IN us, that gets passed on from generation to generation in our very nature. This change in human moral standing has to be inherited genetically or the idea that we are changed is meaningless.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
After Adam sinned, supposedly evil increased so there was now an imbalance (51/49). So now it is supposedly more difficult for man to overcome his evil inclination, not impossible, but more difficult. Sin, as ramoss explained, means to miss the mark. You can't inherit sin or a mistake. You may inherit the propensity to sin, but that doesn't mean you will sin. I don't see the lower status as dealing with moral capacities, since Adam still made a wrong choice at the higher status. I see it as losing ground. He has to work harder to reach perfection. But the point is that we DO genetically inherit this changed propensity to sin, which is all the doctrine of original sin is saying too.
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ramoss Member (Idle past 640 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
That is not what the doctrine of Original sin says. The Jewish conception is that everyone is born innocent.
The Jewish concept is that we also inherit the propensity to DO GOOD. Judiasm sees man as essentially good, and not essentially evil.
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ReverendDG Member (Idle past 4139 days) Posts: 1119 From: Topeka,kansas Joined: |
The problem is that we're not talking about something like money that we inherit externally, but something that is IN us, that gets passed on from generation to generation in our very nature. This change in human moral standing has to be inherited genetically or the idea that we are changed is meaningless. why is it meaningless? because you can't conseave of the fall not changing us somehow without it being genetic? From all that I've read about it, it says we were at a level of closeness to god then adam messed up, and god lowered mans status from one with god to trying to get back there I mean on many websites and books thats what they say that man was at a level where god directly communicated with man in person, then adam sinned and now our job is to get back to that level, or higher This message has been edited by ReverendDG, 01-03-2006 12:24 AM This message has been edited by ReverendDG, 01-03-2006 12:25 AM
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
The problem is that we're not talking about something like money that we inherit externally, but something that is IN us, that gets passed on from generation to generation in our very nature. This change in human moral standing has to be inherited genetically or the idea that we are changed is meaningless.
why is it meaningless? because you can't conseave of the fall not changing us somehow without it being genetic? From all that I've read about it, it says we were at a level of closeness to god then adam messed up, and god lowered mans status from one with god to trying to get back there I mean on many websites and books thats what they say that man was at a level where god directly communicated with man in person, then adam sinned and now our job is to get back to that level, or higher The point is that this condition of lowered status becomes the condition of all Adam's descendants. How does that happen except through genetic inheritance? This message has been edited by Faith, 01-03-2006 01:35 AM
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