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Author Topic:   How Literal is Genesis
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 3 of 47 (397922)
04-28-2007 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Pete OS
04-27-2007 9:23 PM


No, Genesis is not literally true.
In fact, just simple honesty will confirm that. The fact is that a literal reading of the two creation tales found in Genesis would show that they are mutually exclusive. The self-proclaimed Literalists get around those contradiction by literally making up interpretations one how to literally read them. It is too funny for words.
Was Adam a real person? No. Nor was Eve. At the time that Adam was supposed to have lived, say 6000 years ago, every continent of the world was inhabited by modern man and they had been there for tens of thousands of years.
Was Noah a real person? If the flood was only local, did it kill off all of mankind? (and from a science perspective: do we have evidence that it is impossible that the whole human race hit an 8 person bottle neck just 5k years ago or so).
It's entirely possible that the flood myth revolves around some real individual, but there hasn't been a world-wide flood all the history of the earth so far. No, a local flood did not kill off all or even most of mankind. Your question about a bottle neck is also one of the most important ones to ask. Let me try to explain why.
If there had been a world-wide flood as described in the Bible, we would not see just the 5K genetic bottleneck in humans, we would see that in every single living species of animals on earth. This would not just be an indicator, it would be a big red flag on a neon sign with fireworks in the background and a brass band marching in the foreground.
The Biblical Flood would have left a marker that is far easier to see, far more obvious, than the KT boundary deposits.
There is simply no evidence of there ever being a world-wide flood.
Was Abraham a real person? If the first 11 chapters or so are entirely mythical, when does Genesis start becoming historical? Did people really live into their 800s? If not, why is this written into Genesis? Is that part of the myth, or some translation mistake?
It is very unlikely that Abraham was a real person and Genesis is not a history as we think of histories today. Rather it is a collection of the folk tales of a peoples and an era. It is valuable because it gives us insight into the way people saw themselves and their world.
No, all the evidence is that the folk from 6000 years ago lived about as long as the average person today. The idea though of attributing long life spans to folk was a pretty common one though, and if you read the Epic of Gilgamesh, you will find that the authors of the various Bible stories actually toned things down. The much earlier Epic has folk living even longer than the Bible tales.
In the earlier thread I gave you a link to the Catechism of Creation. It may help you in your journey.
If the first 11 chapters or so are entirely mythical, when does Genesis start becoming historical?
You don't get much that we would really consider as history until, perhaps, around Judges. The Exodus never happened as described; the Conquest of Canaan never happened as described in Joshua.
Even then, the history in the Bible is not history as we understand it.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Pete OS, posted 04-27-2007 9:23 PM Pete OS has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 7 of 47 (398038)
04-28-2007 11:50 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Pete OS
04-28-2007 11:13 PM


Humans in the America's before, during and after the flood.
Actually, there were advanced civilizations all over the world by the time of the flood. Look at Egypt. The flood was about the time of some of there biggest construction projects, yet they never noticed an unusual flood, something they watched carefully.
But there is also the Jomon Culture in Japan, they have a continuous culture that is reflected in pottery styles that existed long before the flood and long afterwards as well.
In thread Message 1 we explored some of the civilizations that were flourishing around the world at around the time of the flood and even back around the time of Creation.
And don't think that the history from Judges on is really what we would consider history today, it simply wasn't. It was far more Folk Tales than "History".

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Pete OS, posted 04-28-2007 11:13 PM Pete OS has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 19 of 47 (398319)
04-30-2007 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Phat
04-30-2007 8:38 AM


Would it matter to you if Jesus never actually existed but only the stories and legends?
Not in the least. The message is still the same.
The Gospel is really very simple. It is just the message that it is okay to fail, but it is not okay not to try.
But what does that have to do with Genesis?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Phat, posted 04-30-2007 8:38 AM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 24 of 47 (398447)
04-30-2007 6:43 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Pete OS
04-30-2007 6:26 PM


trying to open a gate
Pete, lets slide aside for a second and place the Bible on the table for a moment and look at something where we can discuss without infringing on your comfort zone.
Do you know the story of the Pied Piper?
Remember, in it, a guy with a pipe plays all the rats out of the town of Hamelin, so they stopped eating all the grain. But the townsfolk then try to cheat him and not pay what they promised. In return, he pipes all of the children from the town never to be seen again.
It is a horrific story actually, but the lesson to be learned, that you should always keep your word, is a valuable one.
Does it matter if the story is true or not?
Is the lesson still of value even if the event never happened?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Pete OS, posted 04-30-2007 6:26 PM Pete OS has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Pete OS, posted 04-30-2007 8:08 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 26 of 47 (398458)
04-30-2007 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Pete OS
04-30-2007 8:08 PM


Re: trying to open a gate
At some point I must come to terms with the idea that I can not at all distinguish between stories with lessons to be learned and real life events with eternal consequences.
Okay, so the issue is salvation?
That's fine. According to the Bible, Atheists, Satanists and such are more likely to be saved then many Christians.
I know that might set you back at first, but it is Biblically based. And Paul, IMHO would certainly agree with that assessment.
For some insight on why I say that, look at Message 1.
In the words of one of my friends who is a Priest, 'So what is the big deal about hell? HELL! Ah, "fogitaboutit."'

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Pete OS, posted 04-30-2007 8:08 PM Pete OS has not replied

  
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