Atheism, Regimes and belief systems

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Truth is an abstraction needed to make language work. If you invent a language, then you will invent a notion of truth as part of that language.

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Damn. Everyone else around here is so much better at expressing important points much more concisely than I do. In fact, this is expressed so well, it even explains to me what I meant when I was reasoning this out to myself.

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"Religion is the best business to be in. It's the only one where the customers blame themselves for product failure."
-- Ellis Weiner (quoted on the NAiG message board)

Sounds very classy in the abstract but I don't think it means anything. If truth is a function of language, which implies that truth must vary from language to language, this needs an example. What is true in one language that is not true in another?Seems to me that language simply accommodates itself TO truth, is entirely involved with finding ways to express what is. Truth is the objective fact, language simply a way of talking to each other about it.Ploddingly dull idea no doubt to those who soar in the high altitudes of abstraction.This message has been edited by Faith, 05-12-2006 04:21 PM

So are you saying that the truth isn't really true?

There are Truths, things which can be established with a high degree of certainty. For example, at this moment I am not on the moon. But that is simply not the case with morality. So far no one has been able to point to any absolute moral statements that have stood up to examination.The same can be said when trying to relate Laws to Justice. There is simply no connection between Laws and Justice, just as there is no connection between Truth and Morality.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Seems to me that language simply accommodates itself TO truth, is entirely involved with finding ways to express what is. Truth is the objective fact, language simply a way of talking to each other about it.

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I think nwr is saying (and he can correct me if I am wrong) that truth is not objective facts (whatever those are); "truth" is how well a statement in a language corresponds to objective fact.

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"Religion is the best business to be in. It's the only one where the customers blame themselves for product failure."
-- Ellis Weiner (quoted on the NAiG message board)

Well, of course, if that's all he meant. The quality of truth applies to propositions not to things or states of affairs. But to call it an "invention" seems rather odd.

Well, but this is what he said: Truth IS an abstraction NEEDED to make language work. INVENT a NOTION of truth. I dunno.I guess I'll wait and see what he says. But it's a very confusing statement at least.

I do not suggest any such implication.Truth is a property we ascribe to sentences. Without language there would be no sentences, and thus there would be nothing to which "truth" could be applied. Are you unable to see that religion is highly abstract?

Not MY religion. Very down to earth. Jesus was a man, was born as a man is born, lived as a man, died as a man, taught and did amazing things that made the people take notice. Walked around a piece of earthly terrain that is recognizable today. Lots of people believed he was the Messiah and that his death would save us from eternal misery for any who also believe.Nothing abstract about it, no juggling of semantics, pondering what truth means or what you mean about language in relation to truth. Your original statement was apparently simply unclearly stated then.This message has been edited by Faith, 05-12-2006 05:41 PMThis message has been edited by Faith, 05-12-2006 05:42 PM

Well, if you want to take the viewpoint of the atheistic cultural anthropologist, then I agree there is nothing abstract about it. There is also nothing religious about it.Should we assume that you have abandoned your YEC religious beliefs?

Chiroptera seems to have understood it very well (see Message 95).

I didn't see how Chiroptera got that out of what you said. Neither did Robin apparently. But I guess you can say it's our fault if you like.This message has been edited by Faith, 05-12-2006 06:00 PM

There is no need to find fault. This is likely a cultural disagreement, as in The Two Cultures.

Hi, Faith.Yes, nwr is saying exactly what I thought he was saying; I felt (and feel) that the statements in our respective posts are saying the same thing. Perhaps I wasn't very clear, either. Sorry about that.

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"Religion is the best business to be in. It's the only one where the customers blame themselves for product failure."
-- Ellis Weiner (quoted on the NAiG message board)

OK, well, I still don't get really what he WAS saying. Could somebody try it again in other words for us on the other side of the cultural divide or whatever the problem is?