What to believe......

Setting up experiments in which you attempt to kill people with only angel intervention being the means of preventing death would be somewhat problematic. Especially in a country as litigious as yours. Lack of volunteers might be another problemI know God intervenes but on the other hand I am told not to test God. So you can count me out

Yup, down right stupid.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Faith - I'll continue to try and move objects with my mind, but I doubt that my dogs will appreciate yelling (!).
Do you think that manipulating your enviroment by concentration and yelling is evidence of 'Ki'?So far, nothing has happened yet on my end, but I am still trying.Cannot try the motorcycle thing, as I have never ridden in my life

I don't know what "ki" is or "chi."I do believe that the mind or soul possesses an energy that can be concentrated to affect the physical world. I don't think it's easy to do intentionally, and I don't think it's a good idea to do it. I guess maybe the voice can exert a lot of power too under some circumstances, but then we know that involves physical energy -- sound waves etc.That's really all I know about this stuff.The communications spoken/written from a person's mind can have a powerful effect on others anyway, without exerting any physical effect at all. That's the more important thing about the powers of the mind. We are personalities who have been made with the mental/spiritual and physical tools for an amazing variety of interpersonal communications that affect us in an amazing variety of ways. God too is a personality. Someone who can relate to us, communicate with us, because He is a personality -- and made us for that purpose. The physical world has its charms, but without the spiritual/mental world it's a bore, IMHO.{ABE: Realized this may need a little explanation. If you concentrate your mind to move objects you are exerting PHYSICAL energy, the boring stuff. You may convince yourself that way that you do in fact possess a mind I suppose, but my point is that the evidence for that is already abundant.}This message has been edited by Faith, 01-23-2006 06:12 PM

Christians used to consider that kind of thing witchcraft you know.
Is this something the bible has told you or just something you would like to believe.From what you're saying each and every one of us is capable of miracles, is that not blasphemous? I thought God(s) were the only one's endowed with such power?(no intention to trip you up here, rather intrigued how a biblical literalist can support a belief in the magical abilities of all humans)

It's not necessarily demonically powered, which is what witchcraft really is. Since we are fallen I believe it is dangerous to exercise it, however, and if in some sense it is witchcraft, of course it is forbidden. But witchcraft is nonetheless a reality. Believing it is real is not the same thing as advocating it. Perhaps I shouldn't be so eager to help Hal practice anything along these lines, but I really don't think he'll succeed and I don't think he cares if it's witchcraft anyway -- if it is. What's miraculous about witchcraft? It's just the devil's usual stuff. He has some powers over the physical world. And again, I don't see this as coming from the demons, but as powers of the mind or soul. I could be wrong. Again, advocating their practice is one thing, believing they are real is another. I don't know how real such powers are. If they are real they are not "magical." What demons do is magical. Watchman Nee wrote a book arguing that these soul powers are real as I recall, that Adam was given them but that they are fallen along with everything else Adam was originally given, and will ultimately be restored. I believe Nee was ostracized for that book, though. It may be he had strayed into witchcraft. It may be that I have too since I'm not seriously denouncing it but playing along with Hal's desire to try it.Maybe I should take your post as a warning.This message has been edited by Faith, 01-23-2006 06:50 PM

Good point. So what if everyone could move physical things with the mind? Soon, it would be like cell phones or internet or internal combustion engines. We'd all get used to it and move on. Theories would be developed and debates entered into. But would it change the world. Hardly.

Hal, with your Christian background you may know if this is regarded as witchcraft or not. I've always known it was wrong in any case to will things to happen in general. When I find myself doing this, willing something to happen just because I desire it, as all of us do at times I think, I stop and ask God to forgive me and to bring it about if it is in His will, and if not I yield it to Him. We can pray for His intervention but we aren't to will things to happen. He DOES do only good to those who obey Him, but disobedience leads only to destruction. Pitting our human will against His will is sin.I know, you are *only* playing with physical objects. It *seems* innocent enough, and I know you have given up on God, so I figure nothing I say along these lines will matter anyway, but I now believe I've been wrong to play along with this. I'm glad Creavolution made me aware of this. I hope you will come back to God.This message has been edited by Faith, 01-24-2006 03:54 AMThis message has been edited by Faith, 01-24-2006 04:03 AM

Hi Ian. Thanks to Creavolution I think I've been wrong to play around with this with Hal. It may be witchcraft, but it's wrong in any case as I explained in my last post. So I've repented and I don't want to lead anyone else astray either. Pray about it and see if you think I'm right? And thanks for saying you'd pray for me in general. We can't safely venture into a place like EvC without lots of prayer.

Faith -
Thanks for the warning, and I hope that you do not feel overcome with guilt; you have not sent me down any path because I've made my own decisions and am responsible for them, right or wrong. The only thing that you have done is stated that you have demonstrated an ability (twice) that as far as I know, science may not be aware of. You have not sent me on a quest that will end in my spiritual destruction, so no need to worry.Of course I will continue to try moving things, and as I do not believe in demons/devils/angels/gods, should something actually move, I'll have to credit myself (or my mind).
Just think; if I can do this, and do it repeatedly, without subscribing to a particular faith, it could have profound implications. Not the least of which will be me securing the $1,000,000.00 that James Randi promised. I could use that money to accomplish many, many good works!However, as of this morning, there is nothing new to report.
I am trying to concentrate on an object (and it is marked so that if it does move, it will be obvious), eyes open and I try eyes closed also, conjuring up feelings of anger and much more difficult, feelings of love. Not toward the object, but I am trying to transfer those feelings when I focus on the object.Faith, please do not think that you are in any way responsible for whatever I might do; I was trying to do this years before I even knew of the internet, certainly long before you replied to my post. Feel free to live in guilt if you wish, but that is your decision; you have nothing to feel guilty about.

Your view, Ifen, seems to be that language interferes with knowledge.I guess my own view is--off the top of my head--that language is our only vehicle of knowledge. It's how we know the limited bits of knowledge that we know.My own view is that if we can't explain something plainly and precisely in words, then we don't really understand it.

Well..what does the word "imagination" mean to you? Without getting into a debate on whether the Bible is literal or not, consider the following scriptures:One can either attempt to employ their own vain imagination as a guideline throughout life, or one can allow God to guide them...thus allowing His Spirit---His provision (fore-seeing) His imagination--(which is in essence His creative power) to become our vision.This is what trust is all about in a spiritual sense. The human mind is capable of imagining a present or future without God, but in an absolute sense, Gods foreknowledge...provision...is already an option regardless.This message has been edited by Phat, 01-24-2006 08:27 AM

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Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either, but right through every human heart, and through all human hearts. This line shifts. Inside us, it oscillates with the years. Even within hearts overwhelmed by evil, one small bridgehead of good is retained; and even in the best of all hearts, there remains a small corner of evil. --Alexander Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago

i wouldn't take it too seriously. remember what early christians would think of you making a stone dance with light by pressing on a tablet of magical runes. i mean... um... typing on your keyboard. is their interpretation of mental-physical manipulation more valid because it doesn't involve modern realities but is instead something we still don't understand?

That was my claim as well, but I have not been able to 'prove' it to myself yet, just a belief. That's why I am trying these experiments, to see if any of it is real.
If it is, then I can move on from there.

I know you are responsible for yourself, but if a person misleads you it is only right to correct the mistake. I'm not eaten up with guilt, just trying to do the right thing.