mjfloresta
Member (Idle past 6023 days) Posts: 277 From: N.Y. Joined: 06-08-2006
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Re: Purpose is Over, But Still Holds
My husband and I are not one flesh. The child produced from our union is one flesh. So I agree with Ringo on that one. Sarah gave Hagar (her maid) to Abram for the sole purpose of bearing a child. Did Abram really become one flesh with Sarah's maid as well as Sarah? How many wives did Jacob have? One flesh? The Hebrew word "ishshah" translated as wife in this verse can also be translated as woman or female, just as the Hebrew word "iysh" which is translated man in this verse can also be translated as husband or male. I don't know Hebrew to know what nuances determine whether it is translated woman or wife. My guess is that it is possessive. First: just because a word in Hebrew has different English meanings, you can't just use whichever meaning suits your purpose..Lacking any knowledge that the translators misinterpreted the word given the context, the word must remain..
When a man talks about his woman, then she is his mate and we translate that as wife and vice versa. Mating or procreation doesn't constitute marriage. Second: These verses are not talking about pro-creation but rather being brought together as one unit - one flesh...
The story of Adam and Eve is a very very very old story. Probably from the time of small tribes. Procreation and companionship were important, not the formalities. Even here in the states, early settlers would go ahead and consider themselves "married" and function as such until the traveling preacher could come around and perform the marriage ceremony. Not being legally married didn't stop them from procreating. Formalities? Replacing the institution of marriage with one effect (procreation) of that institution is not "formalities".... Your example of the settlers is an example of "formalities" - the reality being that they considered themselves in fact "married" - whatever that means?- not merely united for the sake of procreating.
If this verse in Genesis is the basis for marriage, then why have the rules of marriage changed over time? What rules have changed?
This verse supposedly by Paul is over 500 years later and oddly enough I think it was used, in a time of arranged marriages, to get men (not that all men of the time did) to stop looking at women as just a means of procreation. Come on! Everyone likes to conjecture about the Bible which is sometimes neccessary when there is ambiguity; however, the purpose of this verse is given EXPLICITLY by Paul in the very same verse - "FOR THIS REASON, a man shall leave his Father and Mother and shall be joined two his wife, and the two shall be one flesh", For what reason? so that they would procreate? let's look at the context immediately preceding this verse.... Eph 5;22-31 [qs]22Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. 25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26to make her holy, cleansing[b] her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church” 30for we are members of his body. 31"For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.[/qs] Nothing about procreation - everything about the relationship between a man and a woman paralleling the relationship between Christ and his (bride) the church...
It's purpose is over, but it still holds. So that means we should still be following all the laws. But we don't, not even the ones concerning marriage. Please show me how all those laws "still hold. When I said the law still holds, I mean that it was fulfilled in Christ -the end of the law... Matthew 5:17 - "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them"
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The law had a purpose: to reveal the Christ..having done so it's purpose is over - not that it no longer holds but that it the image has been superseded by the reality..
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Yep, that's pretty much the answer I usually get and it still doesn't make sense. See what Paul says in Galatians: 19What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. 20A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one. 21Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. 23Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ[h] that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law. The law served a purpose; that purpose has been fulfilled; That does not mean that the reality behind each individual law has been negated...
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 28 by purpledawn, posted 06-15-2006 9:05 AM | | purpledawn has replied |
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mjfloresta
Member (Idle past 6023 days) Posts: 277 From: N.Y. Joined: 06-08-2006
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Re: Bump for mjfloresta
Sorry for not responding earlier, i've been away - not dodging your questions... Anyways, I just spent a good long time typing a response when my internet explorer quit...so here goes again... In response to the two commandments (love of God and love of man) being the greatest of the commands, that is true, but they are more than that...
Matthew 7:12 - So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets. Matthew 22:37-41 - Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment.
And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." Luke 10:25-27 - On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
"What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"
He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' Galatians 5:13-14 - You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature[a]; rather, serve one another in love. The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." So the two commandments "love of God" and "love of man/neigbor" are clearly the reality behind the law - not just the greatest of the commandments... As far as Jesus coming to fulfill the law..It's true that the laws are to be properly interpreted (i'll address that shortly) - however that is not what it means that Jesus fulfilled the law but something else entirely... How did Christ fulfill the law? Let's look at the purpose of the law as laid out in Scriptue: The first thing to say about the law is that perfect obedience to the law results in life (righteousness) and blessing..the Old Testament is replete with God's commands to obey his law and the blessings that would follow such obedience, as is the New Testament:
Leviticus 18:4-5 - You must obey my laws and be careful to follow my decrees. I am the LORD your God. Keep my decrees and laws, for the man who obeys them will live by them. I am the LORD. Leviticus 25:18-19 - 'Follow my decrees and be careful to obey my laws, and you will live safely in the land. Then the land will yield its fruit, and you will eat your fill and live there in safety.. Deuteronomy 4: 1-3 - Hear now, O Israel, the decrees and laws I am about to teach you. Follow them so that you may live and may go in and take possession of the land that the LORD, the God of your fathers, is giving you. Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you. Deuteronomy 6:24-26 - The LORD commanded us to obey all these decrees and to fear the LORD our God, so that we might always prosper and be kept alive, as is the case today. 25 And if we are careful to obey all this law before the LORD our God, as he has commanded us, that will be our righteousness." Deuteronomy 7:12 - If you pay attention to these laws and are careful to follow them, then the LORD your God will keep his covenant of love with you, as he swore to your forefathers. Romans 2:13 - For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. So righteousness is for whoever perfectly obeys the law...however the next point is that no one actually can or has perfectly obeyed the law (aka..none IS righteous)
Romans 3:9-20 - What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."
13"Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."
14"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16ruin and misery mark their ways,
17and the way of peace they do not know."18"There is no fear of God before their eyes."
19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. Romans 5:12-14 - Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned - for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come... Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. So far we have seen that obeying the law perfectly brings righteousness; however none have attained this righteousness since all have sinned...We have also seen that the price of sin/unrighteousness is death...What then is the point of the law, if none can achieve righteousness by it?
Romans 3:19-21 - Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. Righteousness Through Faith 21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. Romans 5:20-21 - The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 7:7 - What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. Galatians 3:19 - What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. Galatians 3:23-24 - Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. The point of the Law? To show man his unrighteousness and to point to Christ.. The last few points will demonstrate how Christ came to fulfill the law (and what that means) Christ himself claims to fulfill the law:
Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. The law points to Christ:
Matthew 11:12-14 - From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it. For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John. And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come. Luke 24:43-45 - and he took it and ate it in their presence. He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms." 45Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. John 1 44-46: Philip, like Andrew and Peter, was from the town of Bethsaida. Philip found Nathanael and told him, "We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote”Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph." How does Christ fulfill the Law?
Romans 3:20-22: Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. Righteousness Through Faith 21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, Romans 7:5-7: For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. Romans 8:2-4 - because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, 4in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit. Romans 10:3-5 - 3Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. 4Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. Romans 13:8-9 - 8Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet,' and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself." Galatians 3:12-14 -12The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."14He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit. Ephesians 2:14-16 - 14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. So Christ fulfills the law by: A. living the righteous life that no other can. B. imparting his righteousness to unrighteous man as a free gift. C. Taking the punishment required by the law for those who are not righteous. Therefore, the life that could not be earned under the law, is received throught the free gift of Christ...That is the fulfillment of the law... How does all this tie in with what scriptural laws we now should follow? Probably the best way to answer this question is to look at how Christ himself deals with the law..as well as the rest of scripture...(i know this post is already enormous and the scriptures dealing with the law are incredibly extensive so I will try to limit myself to while sufficiently conveying the point)...
Matthew 12:9-11 - 9Going on from that place, he went into their synagogue, 10and a man with a shriveled hand was there. Looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, they asked him, "Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?"
11He said to them, "If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? 12How much more valuable is a man than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath."
13Then he said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." So he stretched it out and it was completely restored, just as sound as the other. Matthew 19:3-6 - 3Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?"
4"Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,' 5and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? 6So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate." Matthew 23:23-24 - 23"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices”mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law”justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel. John 5:5-11 - One who was there had been an invalid for thirty-eight years. 6When Jesus saw him lying there and learned that he had been in this condition for a long time, he asked him, "Do you want to get well?"
7"Sir," the invalid replied, "I have no one to help me into the pool when the water is stirred. While I am trying to get in, someone else goes down ahead of me."
8Then Jesus said to him, "Get up! Pick up your mat and walk." 9At once the man was cured; he picked up his mat and walked.
The day on which this took place was a Sabbath, 10and so the Jews said to the man who had been healed, "It is the Sabbath; the law forbids you to carry your mat."
11But he replied, "The man who made me well said to me, 'Pick up your mat and walk.' " John 8 1But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" 6They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.
But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." 8Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"
11"No one, sir," she said.
"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin." How did Christ deal with the Law? Keep in mind two things: 1. It was Christ who said that "I have not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it" and "Not one jot or tiddle of this law will pass away" and 2. That Christ looked beyond the law to what it represented (as I have discussed before)... In each of the above examples, Christ points to a reality deeper than the law itself - each reality being already existant in Scripture... 1. When Christ healed the man on the Sabbath, he disregarded the law to not work on the Sabbath in order to demonstrate his love for the man... 2. In the question on divorce, Christ actually goes against the Law of Moses (permitting divorce)...why? To demonstrate the principle of "love of neighbor/man" that was God's original intention..How do we know this? How did Christ know this? He went back to scripture - the creation ordinance in this case to know God's original intention...Furthermore, to reject God's ordinance would not only not be "love of neighbor" but also not "love of God" because it would entail disobedience... 3. In the example of tithing the herbs and spices Christ is showing the true form of love - genuine love as demonstrated by "justice", "mercy" and "faithfulness" versus a display of love (tithing) without the true spirit of love... 4. Likewise the healing of the invalid shows love of man... 5. The story of the prostitute shows not that her sin isn't deserving of death - according to the law it is - but that everyone, her accusers included has committed some sin worthy of death - but that a greater law of mercy (neither do I accuse you) has trumped the law of death.. To recap.. 1. The law sets the standard for righteousness. 2. Whoever meets this standard achieves righteousness. 3. No one achieves this standard of themselves. 4. Failure to meet this standard results in death. 5. Christ came to earth to achieve this standard (fulfilling the law)which he did. 6. Christ offers his righteousness to whoever desires it. 7. Christ died to take the punishment that under the law was due us (fulfilling the law). 8. The end (fulfillment) of the law is Christ. 9. The end (essence) of the law is "love of God" and "love of neighbor". 10. Christ is therefore the fulfillment of the law both because he satisfies its requirements (he lived a righteous life, he took the punishment for our unrighteousness) and because he demonstrated perfect love of God and love of man. So the law is a reflection of the greater reality... That does not make the laws any less "true" or significant; rather these realities have been superseded by a greater one as demonstrated by Christ (this is not, however, a new concept, as the Old Testament testifies to Love of God and Love of man as being the greatest commandments).. Every command of scripture and every principle that a Christian would use to guide their life must be evaluated under the same lens as that used by Christ, who judged all situations in the light of God's previous revelation to man and the truths explicitly and implicitly revealed in such revelation... I believe I have accurately laid out what Scripture has to say about the law and its daily application in our lives...if I have missed something or need to clarify anything please let me know...Thanks for bearing with me on a very long post which I hope has been helpful to all...
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 46 by purpledawn, posted 06-21-2006 6:58 AM | | purpledawn has replied |
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