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Author Topic:   Apparently, Just One More Parlor Trick
Brian
Member (Idle past 4988 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 3 of 42 (95430)
03-28-2004 4:34 PM


I like this parlour trick highlighted by Thomas Woolston Discourse on the Miracles, in view of the present controversy between infidels and apostates London 1729. page 55
Of the blind man, for whom eyesalve was made of clay and spittle; which eyesalve; whether it was Balsamick or not, does not equally affect the credit of the miracle. If it was naturally medicinal, there's an end of the miracle; and if it was not medicinal, it was foolishly and impertinently apply'd, and can be no otherwise accounted for than by considering it, with the Fathers, was a figurative act in Jesus.
What reason can Jesus have for mixing clay with his spit and applying it to the man's eyes other than simple entertainment value?
Surely the Son of God could cure that man's blindness with a single thought, why go through the Copperfield routine?
Jesus must have been in big demand for children's parties and the opening of new bazaars, his party tricks probably provided him with a fairly comfortable living.
Brian.

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by crashfrog, posted 03-28-2004 6:32 PM Brian has not replied
 Message 18 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 04-03-2004 3:21 PM Brian has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4988 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 37 of 42 (99623)
04-13-2004 6:19 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Cold Foreign Object
04-03-2004 3:21 PM


Hi WT, hope you are well.
Then why did the gospel writer make this spit-mud miracle up ?
I didn't say that he made it up.
Why didn't the gospel writer just have Jesus speak the miracle into existence ?
Because Jesus audience would havebeen bored by that.
If the gospel writer is myth-making like you have claimed then this type of twist must hurt his story.
I never said it was a myth, I have no idea where you get this from.
The recording of this type of miracle indicates/demonstrates honesty on the part of the writer - he wrote what happened.
Yes, he wrote about Jesus' magic show, Jesus' obsession with being the centre of attraction, he loved the limelight, he played to the crowd 'look at me, look at me, how great am I?'
The basis of your criticism is a straw man, nay, more like a spectre argument, which is : because you do not know why Jesus chose to heal this way, therefore it must of never happened.
So this is a strawan of a strawman! I never said it didnt happen, I only asked: why the clay?
I don't believe in miracles, there is always an alternative explanation for everything.
If Jesus performed a "trick for entertainment" as you have described it, then where is the entertainment for anyone (including the blind person) in seeing someone get spit-mud smeared in their eyes ?
It is far more entertaining that someone walking into a room and saying' Hey you, you can see again', where is the entertainment in that. Jesus had to go through the razzamatazz, build the tension up in the audience, let them think 'is it gonna work or not', get them on the edge of their seats, they 'Hey presto' the 'stooge' can 'see' again, marvelous entertainment in first century Palestine, they had no Friends, Frazier or Coronation Street to watch in those days.
If Jesus is wise,
That is a very very big IF.
then He is smart enough to know that this is not entertainment.
This is great entertainment, Jesus healed people when he wasnt even in the same room as them, he didnt get any applause from the crowd so he was like a spoiled child, all upset, so he decided to make sure that everyone knew that it was him performing these parlour tricks.
Who would be entertained by the event in question ?
The semi educated ignorant morons who were stupid enough to think that Jesus was a god, who else?
Certainly no Jew would be dumb enough to think this was entertainment, and certainly no Jew would be dumb enough to be fooled by a trick like this ?
You cannot make these sweeping generalisations back through 2000 years, to claim that no Jew was ever fooled by a parlour trick is not something you can support. Apparently, there was at least 13 of them stupid enough to think Jesus was a god.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 04-03-2004 3:21 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 04-13-2004 9:56 PM Brian has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4988 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 39 of 42 (100170)
04-15-2004 4:59 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Cold Foreign Object
04-13-2004 9:56 PM


HI WT,
I got this from previous posts of yours that claim the N.T. writers were engaged in myth-making.
Not everything they wrote was a myth, but most of it was.
IF a parlour is a controlled environment specially prepared to deceive then isn't a public setting the most unlikely place to pull off such a stunt/trick/deception ?
A parlour trick is a simple trick that victorians used ot do in their parlours to entertain each other. They were not that complex, they were simple childlike illusions.
Have you ever watched the street magicians on TV, they practise a lot before they go out on the streets, but their tricks are performed in public, usually with the member of the public in very close proximity to them.
Magicians were ten a penny in Jesus' day, even Simon Magus is mentioned in the Bible.
Brian, why do you interpret the text to be the work of a magician ?
Simple, because if Jesus was a god then he wouldn't need to go through all the showbiz stuff of building up the crowd, he wouldn't need to use props. He could just have cured people with a thought, he cured the roman centurion's servant at Capernaum without actually going to where the servant was.
He could have done the same with Lazarus, but he didn't, he just swanned around for a while before going back to raise Lazarus from the dead. Jesus clearly loved the attention that these tricks brought him.
How is it that you cannot be fooled by the claims of Luke unlike a zillion other people ?
A zillion other people are desparate to believe thats why.
Well it is a bit more comples than that of course, but many of these people have been indoctrinated from an early age, they have been conditioned into thinking that everything in the Bible is true, therefore this story is true.
NBot everyone approaches the text from a critical stance, many are too biased towards the Bible to stand back and criticise it, if the same story was attached to Muhammad then you would say it was nonsense.
Many people think because some of the story is plausible then all of it is 100% true, but this is a wrong approach. Parts of the tale may be true, but miracles do not happen, there is always another explanation. You also have to remember that Luke didnt know Jesus, Luke didn't witness Jesus doing anything at all, he was getting these stories from other people who undoubtedly exaggerated them.
Why can't the text be accurate, rather, what is your evidence/rationale for Luke claiming a miracle was performed when it was a cruel trick ?
The text can be accurate, but the conclusion doesnt need to be your one.
Evidence/rationale? Well evidence is that Luke wasn't an eyewitness, people exaggerate stories over time, the bible needs to be interpreted and this interpretation may not be accurate the blindness may have been metaphorical.
Rationale: Miracles do not happen, people who are blind do not suddenly see when they have had spit and mud rubbed on their eyes. Your ONLY source for this tale is from someone whose idol benefits from the telling of it, there are NO objective sources to anything Jesus did.
People played, and still do, cruel tricks on others all the time, they did it 2000 years ago and they do it now. Jesus didnt do any work related to his occupation in the stories we have in the Gospels, he had to make a living, being a magician must have brought a good living, he certainly appeared to get invited to people's houses for meals and it sure beats sawing wood for a living.
Brian.
PS, Did God lie to Ahab? YES or NO

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 04-13-2004 9:56 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 04-15-2004 4:58 PM Brian has not replied

  
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