Evidence of Jesus in the entire bible.

Sorry for the delay in answering. Had to get my dinner.The entire fourteenth chapter of Zechariah deals with the coming "day of the LORD." Please note the fact that the word LORD is rendered in all capital letters (unless you are using certain loosely translated versions). When LORD is written like this it indicates that the Hebrew word is the so-called Tetragrammaton, the mysterious "word" which, when sounded out in English coues out as something like Yahweh, or Jehovah. Is Jesus Jehovah? I doubt that you would say so but maybe you do?Note that beginning with verse sixteen, it is predicted that every one of the nations that remain will come to Jerusalem to do homage to Jehovah. Those who do not will be punished. They will get no rain.Note that every cooking pot will be the property of "the LORD of hosts;" that is to say, the Commander of Armies. Jerusalem will be a military camp.Do you imagine heathen nations being deprived of rain during the years after Jesus returns? Do you imagine every cooking pot inscribed with the name of the Jewish God? Do you imagine Jesus turning Jerusalem into an armed camp?If you answer no to these questions, then you don't really bellieve that this prediction is about Jesus.------------------
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Sorry for the delay in answering. Had to get my dinner.The entire fourteenth chapter of Zechariah deals with the coming "day of the LORD." Please note the fact that the word LORD is rendered in all capital letters (unless you are using certain loosely translated versions). When LORD is written like this it indicates that the Hebrew word is the so-called Tetragrammaton, the mysterious "word" which, when sounded out in English comes out as something like "Yahweh," or "Jehovah." Is Jesus Jehovah? I doubt that you would say so but maybe you do?Note that beginning with verse sixteen, it is predicted that every one of the nations that remain will come to Jerusalem to do homage to Jehovah. Those who do not will be punished. They will get no rain.Note that every cooking pot will be the property of "the LORD of hosts;" that is to say, the Commander of Armies. Jerusalem will be a military camp.Do you imagine heathen nations being deprived of rain during the years after Jesus returns? Do you imagine every cooking pot inscribed with the name of the Jewish God? Do you imagine Jesus turning Jerusalem into an armed camp?If you answer no to these questions, then you don't really bellieve that this prediction is about Jesus.------------------
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Unless you have changed your name without identifying yourself, you did not say that there were "other predictions" - end even if there were it would not change the contents of Mark 13.
Points 1 and 2 down.Since even in your interpretation the generation which sees the signs will be that of the end, if the disciples live to see the first signs then the end must be within one generation of the disciples' death. But there is no implication that the disciples will not live beyond the first signs. Indeed, 13:14-23 is written as if some at least would be alive for those events including the "abomination that causes desolation" (pagan worship in the Temple - and thus BEFORE the destruction of the Temple) and the terrible events following that. And after that, according to 13:24-27 is the Second Coming itself.I disagree with the statement that the disciples die not long after the beginning because it is not contained in the text. There is nothing to indicate that at least some of them will not live to the end - and in any case the end is of necessity within one generation of the first signs even on the questionable interpretation you place on 13:30.[This message has been edited by PaulK, 08-29-2003]

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You won't see "itsme" being so gracious.

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And I mean that...My point is simple

• from your original choice of words the implication can be made that there is only one prediction located in the whole bible concerning the Second Coming (note your use of the singular below)
• there are more than one in the bible
• you specified Mark 13 after you made this quote...

In my interpretation

• the disciples may live to witness the beginning of the prophetic events unfold
• there is no implication that anyone who saw the beginning of the prophetic events unfold would also witness the culmination of the prophetic events in whole
• Why must the "end" be within one generation of the disciples death??

• there is no implication, within Mark, as to whether the disciples would or would not live beyond the beginning of the prophetic events
• therefore, it is unreasonable, to assume whether they would or not from this text

• even the author understood the "abomination that causes desolation" may refer to people other than those who were present.
• this can be noted by Mark's interjection of ,"let the reader understand"
• Why would Mark interject the words, "let the reader understand", if he did not feel that the "abomination that causes desolation" may apply to a future generation??

• Mark 13:24-27 is a not good evidence of these things applying to the disciples
• this certainly leads to an implication of the future( "those days", "that distress", "at that time")
• refer to message 101(weary pilgrim)

• Fair enough...because there is no indication as to whether any of them would live or die. Just that they would be beaten, arrested, and put on trial

• "the end is of necessity within one generation of the first signs"...I don't understand what you are trying to say here. Please try to reword this, if possible

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See my message, #107------------------
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Hi db,

• The interpretation of this chapter is securely hinged on one's understanding of "The Day of the LORD".
• "The Day of the LORD" as it occurs in Isa. 2:6, 12, 19, Isa. 34:1-2, 8, Ezek. 30:2-3, Joel 1:15, 2:1-3, 28-32, 3:12-16, 18, Amos 5:18, 20, Obad. 15-17, Zeph. 1:14-15, 17-18, Zech. 12:2-3, 9-11, 14:1-9, 13, 20, Mal. 4:1-3...1 Thess. 5:2-3, 2 Peter 3:8, 10. refers to JC's coming day of judgement concerning those who choose not to repent.
• The Day of the Lord is, as well, the day of Jacob's trouble. The "sinners" of Israel will be erased from the land. It is a day of purging before the arrival of the Son of man to earth.
• A lack of clear understanding of God's program for the Jews, Gentiles, and the Church of Christ is the cause of much misunderstanding about the time of this important event.

• There is no indication in the New Covenant that one must know, or refer to, the Son of God by his birth name in order to receive his free gift of salvation. It is not necessary to his gospel.
• So I usually just call him "JC"

• And it'll serve 'em right, if all this $h!t really happens and they still don't bother to pay homage.

• Kinda sounds like something Hal Linsdey would infer(lol)
• note - Only the horses bells are inscribed.
• And who puts bells on their army horses, anyway...everybody would here ya comin' a mile away
• "...the cooking pots in the LORD's house will be like the sacred bowls in front of the altar.", note - The cooking pots will be as sacred as altar bowls.
• "Every pot in Jerusalem and Judah will be holy to the LORD Almighty...", note - The Lord will consider them as sacred.
• "...all who come to sacrifice will take some of the pots and cook in them." note - JC is so cool that he will let anyone who comes to sacrifice take a sacred cooking pot so they can cook with it(what a privilege).
• There is never an indication as to who will own the cooking pots, or that Jerusalem will be anything other than a place of homage and inscribed horsey bells.

• Possibly.
• Zechariah 14:17 - "If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, they will have no rain."
• They get punished if...this is contingent upon their behavior, and again, "It'll serve 'em right, if all this $h!t pans out and they still don't bother to pay homage.

• No.
• Names on cooking pots is never stated.
• The horses' bells will be inscribed, not with a name, but rather with an expression of homage, "HOLY TO THE LORD".

• No.
• Where is it implied, in Zechariah, that JC will have the sacred, holy, place of sacrifice and homage "armed".

Thank you, all,for putting up with my shenanigans But you, db, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief!!------------------

I specified Mark 13 as an example, not as the only example.Can you explain why you read Mark 13 as implying that the disciples will only be alive to see the beginning ? They have instructions on what to do right up to the very end, addressed directly to them by Jesus. If there is any implication it is surely that they will be alive to follow those instructions.The "end" has to be within a generation of the beginning because even on the usual fundamentalist reading of Mark the "generation" of Mark 1:30 is the one that sees the signs. If the disciples are alive for the signs that that generation must see the whole thing. Of course better reading is that it is the generation alive at the time.The interjection by the author is only an indication that this is something that the readers may need to investigate. Unless you assume that the speech attributed to Jesus is not accurately reported that interjection by the author has no relevance - it does not change the words attributed to Jesus in any way.
As I pointed out the "Abomination" has to precede the destruction of the Temple, and Jesus clearly tells the disciples what to do WHEN they see the "Abomination" - which they obviously cannot do if it will not happen in their lifetime.You misrepresent my point on 13:24-27. As I stated the preceding verses (13:14-23) imply that the disciples will be alive up see the events described there. 13:18 clearly implies that the duration of those events will be less than a year, and - as I said 13:24-27 describes the Second Coming which neither of you dispute.Weary Pilgrim's post does not address 13:14-23 and neither do you. So neither of you have answered my point.

Good to know that you are reading the rest of the chapter.

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db writes:
Is Jesus Jehovah? I doubt that you would say so but maybe you do?

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I'm afraid you have not answered the question. The LORD (i.e. Jehovah) is considered to be the Father God (God the Father), while Jesus (AKA the Lord) is considered to the the Son of God (God the Son). You cannot take this prophecy regarding a future action of Jehovah and say that it's about something Jesus will do; unless you intend to say that Jesus and Jehovah are the same individual. Perhaps these are pack animals. But bells wouldn't necessarily be a problem for war horses. Remember, these guys are blowing trumpets; banging their swords on their shields; and whooping like banshees. Styles of warfare have evolved. Remember the British, in bright Red Coats, standing tall, out in the open? Remember the Scotts, playing bagpipes as they marched to war. And Yes! You could hear them coming from a mile away. Indeed, under military rule, the commander of the army owns everything. Mainstream versions render this correctly, as "LORD of hosts," (i.e. Jehovah of Armies). There is little justification for giving the Hebrew tsaba as "Almighty," although it still works if one keeps in mind the overall context of Zechariah's message. The NIV is not the best version on the market. You really should read this chapter in a few other translations as well. In a sense, this is true, but that is not what the text says and not exactly what it means. Remember the military context. "Holy" means "set apart" and "the LORD of hosts" is the Military Commander. If this depicts a future under the New Covenant, then why are these people coming to Jerusalem to do "sacrifice." Jehovah of Armies owns the pots and everything else as long as Martial Law is in force. And who are these people who come up to Jerusalem to sacrifice? One must survey the Forest and examine the trees at the same time. The whole chapter is about a WAR to end all wars. A war which is won by the King of Israel, Jehovah.Jesus is supposed to kill the wicked with the brightness of his coming, NOT hold them hostage, without rain, year after year until they come under his Rule of Iron. Careful, I might take such a statement as compliment. db------------------
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Hello PaulK,

• thank you for correcting yourself.

• Mark 13: 7-8, "When you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in various places, and famines. These are the beginning of birth pains.
• Mark 13 supports that they would see the beginning of these things
• The disciples may be alive to see the culmination, but this can only be assumed by the text (not supported).

Here are their instructions (in order)...

• "Watch out that no one deceives you.", - instruction,
• " When you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be alarmed...", - instruction
• "You must be on your guard.", - instruction
• "You will be handed over to the local councils and flogged in the synagogues.", - prophecy
• "On account of me you will stand before governors and kings as witnesses to them.", - prophecy
• "...the gospel must first be preached to all nations.", - prophetic instruction
• "...do not worry beforehand about what to say.", - instruction
• "...say whatever is given you at the time...", - instruction
• note - Only the above instructions apply directly to the disciples. And I agree that there are implications made that they will be alive to follow through with these
• All the things below are specifically directed towards "everyone***" (including the disciples and "the reader")
• JC only instructs two more important things, please, choose two from below to discuss.
• "--let the reader understand--", - instruction.?
• "Pray that this will not take place in winter...", - instruction
• "...do not believe it {arrival of the anti - X}.", - instruction
• "...be on your guard...", - instruction
• "...learn this lesson {fig tree}...", - instruction
• "Be on guard.", - instruction
• "Be alert." - instruction
• "...keep watch..." - instruction
• ***"What I say to you, I say to everyone: 'Watch!'", - instruction

Paul or db,
I would like to continue this discussion....but first, what would you fellows suppose 'the abomination that causes desolation' is in reference to??------------------

How about we consider the primary issues under revue before we introduce extraneous lines of inquiry?------------------
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Since you made the mistake, I was correcting YOUR mistake.I asked you to explain why you thought Mark 13 implied that the disciples would ONLY be alive to see the beginning. The same reasoning you use also implies - as I have already pointed out - that they would live into the final events preceding the Second Coming, which would last less than a year.Apart from misisng the fact that some of your instructions, such as the lesson of the fig tree (13:28-30), are directed to the disciples rather than everybody (and that the "let the reader understand" comes from the author of the Gospel, not Jesus) you've pretty much accepted most of the points I've raised.I don't see a lot to discuss,The "Abomination that causes Desolation" refers to pagan worship in the Temple. According to Josphus (_The Jewish War_) the Roman soldiers who took Jerusalem set their standards up over the Eastern gate of the Temple and offered sacrifices.

Whatever helps you sleep well at night...Paul, I'm kidding...it's really not important.

• I intend to supply reasonable evidence that the disciples, according to JC, could not have been alive to witness the culmination of these curious prophetic texts.

• Although we do share some of the same veiws, I intend to show the lesson of the fig tree was not directed only to the disciples.
• Also, "--let the reader understand--", is specified repeatedly (Matthew 24:2), when in reference to the 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel, leading to believe if this is an insertion by the authors, it is more than random.

• If nothing else, please...allow me to humor you on this.
• It is never stated that one generation would witness the beginning and the fulfillment of the " End of the Age ".
• I will present exactly what JC instructed to the disciples as to indicate that they would not witness the fulfillment of the prophecy.
• This will also establish that, when taken in biblical context, it is implied that the fulfillment of prophecy would be over the course of more than just one generation.

• Our common perspective is offset by our differentiating understandings of this event.
• It, as well, has relevance to the discussion with db; for it this event that sets the stage for the war of all wars (The Day of the LORD).

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If only you would be so kind as to indicate what translation your working from, I would happily work from the same.Thank you...

It appears that you have decided to restate you case. Please do so. I am not convinced by what I've seen so far, but would be interested if you have an argument.Take care.------------------
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Well it will be interesting to see what your "evidence" is. But I suspect that it will be more distortions.But there is no suggestion that the "let the reader understand" was inserted randomly. Why do you keep inventing things like this ? Isn't it quite obivous that it was inserted to indicate that the readers SHOULD investigate the reference ?And if it is not stated that one generation will see the beginning and the end of the prophecy then you are going to have to explain which generation 13:30 is referring to. Surely you are not going to argue that it means that the gneration which sees the end of the prophecy will see the end of the prophecy ?