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Author Topic:   Incest and Adam and Eve
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 31 of 35 (75078)
12-25-2003 2:26 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by ConsequentAtheist
12-24-2003 3:53 PM


ConsequentAtheist responds to me:
quote:
quote:
God's law doesn't change. If incest is a sin now, that means it has always been a sin.
Who made up that rule? Or is it meant as revelation?
It's one of those things that the Bible contradicts itself on.
Numbers 23:19: God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
1 Samuel 15:29: And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.
Ezekiel 24:14: I the LORD have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent; according to thy ways, and according to thy doings, shall they judge thee, saith the Lord GOD.
Malachi 3:6: For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
James 1:17: Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
Note that most of those are from the Old Testament. There are many other verses, however, that directly state that god repents at his own actions (in fact, god regrets having made humans according to Gen 6:6), but that doesn't change the fact that the Bible does say that the law does not change.
So, like pretty much everything else in the Bible, it all depends upon which verse you want to pay attention to and which one you want to ignore.
------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by ConsequentAtheist, posted 12-24-2003 3:53 PM ConsequentAtheist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by ConsequentAtheist, posted 12-25-2003 9:26 AM Rrhain has replied

  
ConsequentAtheist
Member (Idle past 6267 days)
Posts: 392
Joined: 05-28-2003


Message 32 of 35 (75082)
12-25-2003 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Rrhain
12-25-2003 2:26 AM


Tongue-n-Cheek
In defense of his revelation: "God's law doesn't change.", Rrhain offers ...
It's one of those things that the Bible contradicts itself on.
(1) A secondary claim ending in a preposition.
Numbers 23:19: God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
(2) A wholly irrelevant quote from Numbers about lying.
1 Samuel 15:29: And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.
(3) A wholly irrelevant quote from 1 Samuel about lying and repenting.
Ezekiel 24:14: I the LORD have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it; ...
(4) A wholly irrelevant quote from Ezekiel about keeping one's word.
Malachi 3:6: For I am the LORD, I change not; ...
(5) A wholly irrelevant quote from Malichi about YHWH's steadfast commitment to Israel.
James 1:17: Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
(6) Maybe, but it's from a lesser text of the sequel.
Note that most of those are from the Old Testament. There are many other verses, however, that directly state that god repents at his own actions (in fact, god regrets having made humans according to Gen 6:6), but that doesn't change the fact that the Bible does say that the law does not change.
Then one would think that you would have less difficulty supporting this 'fact'. Oh, well, revelation according to James is better than nothing. Merry Christmas ...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Rrhain, posted 12-25-2003 2:26 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Rrhain, posted 12-25-2003 2:44 PM ConsequentAtheist has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 33 of 35 (75124)
12-25-2003 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by ConsequentAtheist
12-25-2003 9:26 AM


Re: Tongue-n-Cheek
ConsequentAtheist responds to me:
quote:
quote:
It's one of those things that the Bible contradicts itself on.
(1) A secondary claim ending in a preposition.
Non sequitur. And surely you aren't going to pretend that a grammar flame (and one that isn't even based on correct grammar) constitutes an argument, are you?
quote:
quote:
Numbers 23:19: God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
(2) A wholly irrelevant quote from Numbers about lying.
Incorrect. You're missing the point. What god says doesn't change. If god were to lie, it would mean that he would have to change his words and he simply does not do that. God does not repent, god does not go back on his word, god does not say, "I didn't really mean that," god does not change.
quote:
quote:
1 Samuel 15:29: And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.
(3) A wholly irrelevant quote from 1 Samuel about lying and repenting.
Incorrect. What do you think lying and repenting are about? God changing his word and his mind. If god changes his mind, if god's law changes, then god is repenting. Therefore, if god does not repent, then god's law does not change.
quote:
quote:
Ezekiel 24:14: I the LORD have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it; ...
(4) A wholly irrelevant quote from Ezekiel about keeping one's word.
Incorrect. It shows once again that god does not change. God does not go back on anything. If something is not a sin before, then it is not a sin forever. If something is a sin, then it has always been a sin. God does not change his mind.
Oh, by the way...is there a reason why you hacked the verse to shreds? Here's the entire verse, since you seem to have missed it:
Ezekiel 24:14: I the LORD have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent; according to thy ways, and according to thy doings, shall they judge thee, saith the Lord GOD.
Don't you think the parts about god not going back and not repenting are important?
quote:
quote:
Malachi 3:6: For I am the LORD, I change not; ...
(5) A wholly irrelevant quote from Malichi about YHWH's steadfast commitment to Israel.
Incorrect. It's one of the most relevant verses. What do you think "I change not" means?
You asked for biblical evidence that god doesn't change. What do you think a direct quote from god saying, "I change not" is?
quote:
quote:
James 1:17: Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
(6) Maybe, but it's from a lesser text of the sequel.
Irrelevant. You're committing the logical error of changing the goal posts. You asked for evidence of X and you were given evidence of X. Now you're claiming that it isn't evidence of Y and hoping to high heaven that nobody notices you didn't ask for Y in the first place.
You asked for biblical evidence that god doesn't change. You were given it. Don't start whining now that it's from a book you didn't expect it to show up in.
quote:
quote:
Note that most of those are from the Old Testament. There are many other verses, however, that directly state that god repents at his own actions (in fact, god regrets having made humans according to Gen 6:6), but that doesn't change the fact that the Bible does say that the law does not change.
Then one would think that you would have less difficulty supporting this 'fact'.
I had no difficulty in supporting it at all. Took me all of two minutes to gather them.
------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by ConsequentAtheist, posted 12-25-2003 9:26 AM ConsequentAtheist has not replied

  
Abshalom
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 35 (75217)
12-26-2003 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Rrhain
12-24-2003 11:25 AM


Re: Go Read Genesis 6:2
Rrhain advises me, "Go read Genesis 6:2;" and directs me, "Keep going. Remember, we're talking about Genesis. What other beings are there other than life on earth?"
I read Genesis 6:2. "...The sons of gods (bene ha-elohim') saw the daughters of men that they were fair..." A light bulb goes on! Oh! Those pesky Nephilim again.
These "sons of gods" are the Ugaritic "children of El" or the patheon of sub-dieties found in Phoenician/Canaanite/Ammonite inscriptions. Bene ha Elohim are a common feature in West Semitic religions.
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"The Watchers were "a specific race of divine beings known in Hebrew as nun resh 'ayin, 'irin' (resh 'ayin, 'ir' in singular), meaning 'those who watch' or 'those who are awake', which is translated into Greek as (Egrhgoroi) egregoris or grigori, meaning 'watchers'. These Watchers feature in the main within the pages of pseudepigraphal and apocryphal works of Jewish origin, such as the Book of Enoch and the Book of Jubilees. Their progeny, according to Hebrew tradition, are named as nephilim, a Hebrew word meaning 'those who have fallen' or 'the fallen ones', translated into Greek as gigantez, gigantes, or 'giants' - a monstrous race featured in the Theogony of the hellenic writer Hesiod (c. 907 BC)."
- Andrew Collins, From the Ashes of Angels - The Forbidden Legacy of a Fallen Race (1996) p. 3
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Apparently the Book of Enoch is the first bit of Jewish literature that describes this particular class of angels and calls them Watchers. They are evil and lead the dead to a place of eternal torment.
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Deliver thou the scribe Nebseni, whose word is truth, from the Watchers, who carry murderous knives, who possess cruel fingers, and who would slay those who are in the following of Osiris.
May these Watchers never gain the mastery over me, and may I never fall under their knives! They are Anubis and Horus the sightless. Others, however, say that they are the Tchatcha, the sovereign princes of Osiris, who bring to nought the operations of their knives; and others say that they are the chiefs of the Sheniu chamber.
May their knives never gain the mastery over me. May I never fall under the knives wherewith they inflict cruel tortures. For I know their names, and I know the being, Matchet, who is among them in the House of Osiris. He shooteth forth rays of light from his eye, being himself invisible, and he goeth round about heaven robed in the flames which come from his mouth, commanding Hapi, but remaining invisible himself.
May I be strong on earth before Ra, may I arrive safely in the presence of Osiris. O ye who preside over your altars, let not your offerings to me be wanting, for I am one of those who follow after Nebertcher, according to the writings of Khepera. Let me fly like a hawk, let me cackle like a goose, let me lay always like the serpent-goddess Neheb-ka. - The Egyptian Book of the Dead
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Boy, these Nephilim/Anakim dudes got around! Where the heck did they come from in the first place???
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The Anakim may have been Mycenaean Greek colonists, belonging to the 'Sea Peoples' confederation which caused Egypt such trouble in the fourteenth century B.C. Greek mythographers told of a Giant Anax ('king'), son of Heaven and Mother Earth, who ruled Anactoria (Miletus) in Asia Minor. According to Appollodorus, the disinterred skeleton of Asterius ('starry'), Anax's successor, measured ten cubits. [Let's see now, 10 times 1.56' is over 15 feet tall. What a hunk of heaven for the puny little daughters of man! ]
Akakes, the plural of Nanx, was an epithet of the Greek gods in general. Talmudic commentators characteristically make the Anakim three thousand cubits tall. [Holy Cow! That's a hunk-a-hunk of burnin' love!] - Robert Graves and Raphael Patai, Hebrew Myths: The Book of Genesis
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Now where on earth did the genetic building blocks come from to construct sons of gods three thousand cubits tall that could possibly accomplish copulation with the diminutive daughters of man???
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It was from that planet [Nibiru], the Sumerian texts repeatedly and persistently stated, that the Anunnaki came to Earth. The term literally means 'Those Who from Heaven to Earth Came.' They are spoken of in the Bible as the Anakim, and in Chapter 6 of Genesis are also call Nefilim, which in Hebrew means the same thing: Those Who Have Come Down, from the Heavens to Earth. - Zecharia Sitchin, Genesis Revisited
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Oh, now I see. Thank you Zecharia Sitchin! Hallelluyah! The Truth Shall Set You Free!
[This message has been edited by Abshalom, 12-26-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Rrhain, posted 12-24-2003 11:25 AM Rrhain has not replied

  
Prozacman
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 35 (75864)
12-30-2003 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Manning
12-06-2003 4:15 PM


I am acutely aware of being late in responding to your ? but I thought you would like reading the thoughts of a former fundamentalist christian on this matter. This is not to say that all fundam. christians agree on an answer to your ?, but here is how I was taught anyway. Way back when I was toting a fat Bible around and going to church 3 or 4 times a week, I suddenly had my doubts, and then I approached my not so amiable pastor with your/my ? How was it possible for Adam & Eve's sons & daughters not to have commited incest against the 'Levitical law'. The pastor's rather "now listen here my stumbling boy" answer was that the levitical laws came after Adam&Eve&kids and therefor they were not obliged to keep those laws. Then the pastor impatiently shoo'd me out of his study saying he had an appointment to keep. So, I went away thinking that God treated Adam,Eve,&kids differently than he did the Israelites. In theological circles this method of Biblical interpretation is called 'Dispensationalism'; that is, God works differently with different people at different times in history in order to accomplish his overall plan; the salvation of humankind. With this method of Bible interpretation one can, with some difficulty, attempt to make logic of the Bible with all of it's supposed contradictions and inconsistencies.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Manning, posted 12-06-2003 4:15 PM Manning has not replied

  
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