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Author Topic:   How accurate is the bible?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18351
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 22 of 62 (98931)
04-09-2004 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by ConsequentAtheist
03-29-2004 7:20 PM


Absolute Opinions
Consequent Atheist writes:
Absolute rubbish! What could it possibly mean to say that you don't have an opinion about virgin births and walking on water and raising the dead because you don't know much about it? Do you likewise have an open mind on the Daoine Sidhe, Unicorns, Astrology and Alien Abduction?
I have an opinion on these topics. We are talking about two types of "Spirits" here. The Holy One which is absolutely perfect, and the evil manipulative ones which have produced many fables and which, not coincidentally, are glorified in worldly childish games such as Dungeons and Dragons. Games where a human bored with their everyday job can whimsically imagine themselves to be some powerful mediaeval troll with the ability to manipulate life circumstances. Yes, I see the supernatural and even if one could argue it a product of human imagination, I see several types of imagination in everyday life.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by ConsequentAtheist, posted 03-29-2004 7:20 PM ConsequentAtheist has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by crashfrog, posted 04-09-2004 9:39 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18351
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 25 of 62 (121744)
07-04-2004 1:33 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by crashfrog
04-09-2004 9:39 PM


Casino Royale
Crashfrog, I will allow you to be my Priest so that I may confess to you.(go along with it, you crazy atheist!)
Forgive me Father, for I have sinned. I have allowed myself to believe that I could win money at a casino. Once, I actually did win. I won $50,000. Instead of running away from that evil place with my loot, I gave it back to them in the course of a year. Yes, I claimed to be a Christian. Yes, I WAS very dumb. I had the mind of a child or, at the very least, Pavlovs DAWG!
I have given up my gambling habit, but I am forever reminded that I could have roughly $65,000 more in the bank at this point in time had I never fell for this manmade scam.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by crashfrog, posted 04-09-2004 9:39 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18351
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 41 of 62 (123884)
07-12-2004 3:39 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Brian
07-05-2004 4:43 AM


Re: More circular reasoning.
I Have heard both sides of this discussion/debate on biblical accuracy, and while I do respect the overall sanity and credentials of guys like Brian, from what I know of him that is, I find it interesting how casually you assert what you do as known facts. Allow me to quote what others (not 5 year olds or new believers, by the way) and their comments FOR THE RECORD:
Q: Why do you trust the Old Testament?
A: Both scripture and archaeology indicate there are no significant changes in our copies today for at least five reasons:
God promised to preserve His word in Isaiah 55:10-11; 59:21; 1 Peter 1:24-25, Matthew 24:35. We can trust God.
Jesus and the New Testament confirmed the Old Testament scriptures in Matthew 19:4; 22:32,37; 39; 23:35; Mark 10:3-6; Luke 2:23-24; 4:4; 11:51; 20:37; 24:27,44
Archaeological evidence: In the Septuagint, the Torah was translated into Greek around 400 B.C. The Dead Sea Scrolls were from about 250 B.C. to after the time of Christ, and we can compare them with our Bibles today. Aramaic Targums are translations made around the time of Jesus. The Dead Sea Scrolls are about 95,000 fragments from 867 manuscripts of the Old Testament and other writings. About 1/3 of the Dead Sea scrolls are manuscripts of the Old Testament according to The NIV Study Bible p.1432. Archaeology shows the Bible Jesus knew was preserved. The Nash Papyrus, dated 150 B.C., contains the Ten Commandments combined from Exodus 20:2-17 and Deuteronomy 5:6-6:4f. In it the sixth and seventh commandments are reverses according to The Journey from Texts to Translations p.188.
At wadi Muraba'at/Murabba’at a Hebrew scroll (Mur.88) of ten of the twelve Minor Prophets is from c. 132 A.D. Small fragments of Genesis, Exodus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, and Isaiah were found in cave 2. See The Journey from Texts to Translations p.188-189 also says that all Muraba’at scrolls are virtually identical to the Massoretic text.
Early church writers, as early as 97/98 A.D., extensively referred to the Old Testament.
Jewish scribes, even though hostile to Christianity, preserved the same Old Testament found in every Protestant Bible today.
Was this guy wrong in his data?
NEXT:
Here's Menahem Mansoor, a professor emeritus at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. He founded the Department of Hebrew and Semitic studies there and the Madison Biblical Archaeology Society. He says, "Biblical archaeology's greatest significance is that it has corroborated many historical records in the Bible. Biblical archaeology has failed to deter people who seek to validate religious concepts by archaeological finds. These people should not confuse fact with faith, history with tradition, or science with religion."
Another contributor makes a similar statement. His name is Israel Finkelstein, the co-director of excavations at Tel Megiddo and Professor of Archaeology at Tel Aviv University. He says, "The most obvious failure of archaeology has been the abuse of 'the old biblical archaeology' by semi-amateur archaeologists. I refer to the romantic days when a special breed of archaeologists roamed the Middle East with a spade in one hand and the Scriptures in the other. These were the times of desperate attempts to prove that the Bible was correct."
Another makes a similar statement. He talks about the problems of making religious assumptions based on the historical evidence of the Scriptures. But he also makes this interesting comment: "A fundamental question asked all over the world during the last few centuries is, Is the Bible true? Do the narratives related in it represent real events and are the figures mentioned there real people who lived and acted as the Biblical text tells us they did? In general, the evidence of material culture fits the Biblical account beginning with the period of the settlement of the tribes of Israel in the land of Canaan and the establishment of the kingdom of Israel. Hence, archaeological data are consistent with the view that at least this part of the Biblical account is, in general, true and historically based." This from David Ussishkin. He is the Professor of Archaeology at Tel Aviv University.
Now, isn't this rather odd? These eminent scholars are saying, first of all, that archaeological evidence has demonstrated that the historical record of the Bible is reliable, by and large. But then they add a disclaimer. They warn us not draw religious conclusions from the fact that the Bible is historically accurate. Why not? This would be confusing history with religion. But isn't this precisely the point of the biblical narrative, that its religious claims are rooted in history?
Finally, read this article:
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 07-12-2004 02:58 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Brian, posted 07-05-2004 4:43 AM Brian has not replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 43 by arachnophilia, posted 07-12-2004 7:50 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 44 by jar, posted 07-12-2004 10:46 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18351
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 56 of 62 (125237)
07-17-2004 5:38 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Coragyps
07-13-2004 11:34 PM


Re: Not very accurate
Jar writes:
there are actually quite a few of the heresies that might even be considered mainstream theology today.
This depends on the criteria and the context in which "theology" is defined as.
The early church Fathers were more than a bunch of white guys from Europe with ulterior motives to control an ignorant populace. It is true that a great deal of corruption, manipulation and racism did occur under power hungry Monarchs in league with corrupt Church officials throughout early European History. I am not suggesting that the institution of organized religion was in any way innocent of very base and fallible motives. Neither were the Jesus bashers who claim that He never existed or that His followeres somehow made every event that they partook in a manipulated attempt to "fit" scriptures and thus appear to fullfill scriptures so as to delude the masses. The fact is that there are many scholars with good credentials who believe in the Bible and its message. Just as far too many fundies believe everything preached to them by many unscrupulous individuals, many modern day scholars and otherwise enlightened intellectual freethinkers believe others like themselves who have also capitalized at debunking the entire story of Christianity for ulterior motives of their own. In conclusion, I maintain that the believers look to a source of wisdom which, if not provable from an unbelievers perspective, is certainly not so easily and casually dismissed either. Gnostics look to human wisdom as a gift from God, and are in a sense beleivers in the "God within" that many non Christian intellectuals embrace as wonderous human potential. Orthodox Christianity, by contrast, looks to a God who manifests Himself to us who have a love of His truth and who guides us when we surrender our ego and our right to deify humanity though our vain intellect.
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 07-17-2004 04:39 AM

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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