Jesus was a Liberal Hippie

The objection Christians have to socialism in general is that it is stealing -- stealing from some to give to others. A violation of one of the Ten Commandments. Jesus is the God of the Old Testament as well as the New. Voluntary giving is the Christian way, not coercing "gifts" from people. Why? He has nothing against taking out evil dictators and trying to better the lives of the Iraqis. Again, the principle is giving, not taking. The "liberal" policy of taking from the rich to give to the poor is theft. Some of the biggest gifts to American life have come from the voluntary giving of the extremely wealthy. It works. Also, Jesus' teachings in general are to the individual, not to governments. There are plenty of commands to those with wealth to use it for the good of others. Coercing it, however, is evil. That teaching was against the Jewish wish to revolt against Caesar by refusing to pay taxes. Taxes are Caesar's.Jesus also taught that His followers are to be "salt" and "light" in the world. This is a command to believers to shine HIS light into worldly darkness and to be HIS salt to stem the corruptions fallen human nature is subject to, in making bad laws for instance that invite the wrath of God -- far from the "secular" notion that Christians should be seen and not heard. The answer is they aren't. The other party is.This message has been edited by Faith, 02-03-2006 01:18 AM

I agree, nwr. Should have read your post before writing mine.

The less government the better. Health care is something government should not be involved in at all. It's a problem for the people to deal with. It was Christians who started the first hospitals, the first orphanages, the first homes for the poor and weak and sick who were otherwise left to die in pagan society. If a society is Christian it will take care of those who need the care. Government should not be in this business. Of course. He is the Truth. There is no other. A government and nation that honors Him will be blessed. He would also support a general policy of tolerance to all beliefs, but not their being treated as true and given any right to rule the nation. This is a war to help people and fight evil. America traditionally doesn't do any other kind. Yes you are.This message has been edited by Faith, 02-03-2006 01:43 AM

The killing of innocent civilians is being done by our enemies. You cannot apply teachings directed to individuals to the operations of governments. That is the main mistake people make who insist that Jesus was a Leftist.This is how we as individuals are to treat our personal enemies. {abe: treating your own personal enemy with love is putting YOURSELF in harm's way, but in war if you treat the enemy with love, an enemy known to kill innocents, you are collaborating in the death of those innocents.}Again, the way America conducts war and the reasons America conducts war are to combat evil and further good. Sometimes war is necessary. You don't feed evil oppressors.This is not to judge the wisdom of this particular war beyond saying that I know Bush's motives are good and I think most of the objections to him are stupid and meanspirited. Again, the teaching is to the individual for dealing with personal enemies. Again, sometimes war is necessary. You don't coddle the enemy in war. And I'd remind everyone again that Jesus IS the God of the Old Testament who sanctioned the slaughter of various tribes of people, which so many here like to complain about. And I admit it's a horrifying thing to contemplate -- but it's a picture of how God deals with sin and will ultimately deal with sin in the Last Judgment. Letting evildoers live to harm and influence others is a far bigger evil than going to war against them. Yes, you as an individual. And we can also love and pray for the Iraqis and the Muslims. But allowing THEM to continue to kill is for us to be violating the rule to love one's neighbor as oneself as that is to sanction the slaughter of innocents. See above.(Matthew 5) Yes, he does. See above. Yes, you should. Taxation is necessary for running government. But socialism takes money from one citizen to give to another citizen, not to run the government. This is not the business of government and it is theft.This message has been edited by Faith, 02-03-2006 09:33 AMThis message has been edited by Faith, 02-03-2006 09:44 AM

The state has taken over what Christians once did, so Christians no longer have the role they once did and haven't figured out how to respond to the situation yet. I think Christians need to get reoriented and remotivated in some as-yet unknown direction. But the habit of letting government and big corporations do the work is a hard habit to break.When you say "state-provided healthcare" keep in mind you are talking about a HUGE tax on the income of citizens. The state has no money of its own. It has to take from its citizens.

Again, there is a difference between taxation for the purpose of government, which includes law and protection, as well as public works like roads that benefit all, and taxation that takes more from the rich to straight-out give it to the poor. Jesus didn't have a house in Capernaum. He had "no place to lay his head." Where did Jesus advocate giving away all the wealth to feed the poor? He said nothing of the sort. They had a purse for giving alms. That is not the same as giving all away. And "poverty of spirit" does not refer to poverty as such, it refers to the spiritual stance of recognizing that nothing we own belongs to us but is given by God and that we are completely dependent on Him.AND, it is one thing for a group of people to agree VOLUNTARILY to share their goods and wealth, and quite another for the powerful entity of government to force it on people. Communism is NOT taught in the Bible.

OK I've made my case on this thread and the opposition is getting nasty. See ya.

I don't care why people are wealthy. Stealing is stealing. And if you want to help the poor, help them. Government doesn't need to be in the business of stealing.

It is not theft to be paid what you contracted for. You are paid for your hours spent. If the wage is unfair you may have a legitimate complaint but if you contracted for that amount maybe not.It is not theft to tax people to pay for the operations of government on behalf of the nation as such, public works, government offices, military.It IS theft to tax people to take care of other people. This has to be done on a volunteer basis, and Americans are very good at that. You don't need to steal from them. I don't know about Europeans or Brits but probably the same there too.This message has been edited by Faith, 02-03-2006 01:52 PMThis message has been edited by Faith, 02-03-2006 01:53 PM

Why should workers control anything they didn't have a hand in creating? Those who develop the business have a right to run it, within reasonable restraints.Hasn't anyone learned from the great communist experiment that all it does is destroy? It creates an oppressed, cynical, demoralized impoverished citizenry, steals their property, discourages free enterprise and creative solutions to problems, creative ideas for improving things, enforces "consciousness-raising," meaning Thought Control, encourages corruption.I don't know about the tamer forms of socialism but apathy perhaps? Anomie? Lack of motivation?

These are commands to individuals. You can't morally turn the other cheek on behalf of someone else, which is what government would be doing if it refused to defend its citizens from tyrants. We personally are to do good to our personal enemies. That is risking only our own harm. Sometimes your enemies kill you. Christians are to be prepared to die in such cases. But you do not put others in the position of being killed. A nation that turned the cheek to Islam can count on their contempt and increased terrorism. I will turn the other cheek to the Muslim myself, but my government has no right to turn it for me.

No, government can't do ANYTHING. You can't take scripture out of context like that. Tyrants are not being supported in those passages. No Christian is obliged to violate a command of God's if government orders it. Some government actions call for civil disobedience. Those passages are talking about the basic role of government, which is keeping the peace, enforcing laws, as all governments do.Also, nobody is refusing to pay the taxes. We want the laws changed, government cut back to governmental functions, leaving charity and welfare to the people.This message has been edited by Faith, 02-03-2006 10:00 PMThis message has been edited by Faith, 02-03-2006 10:00 PM

Uh huh, "welfare" as in the sense of protection of life liberty and the pursuit of happiness, the general peace and prosperity of the nation, jar, not "welfare" in the modern sense, which they had never heard of, as in entitlement to being taken care of by the government.

What's your point?

Maybe I'm a little punchy or something but I'm not recognizing how this is "my" position.Yes government is to be obeyed. Except when it violates God's law. How about that?The stuff that is quoted here from Jesus is wrongly applied to government. It's meant only for individuals, and only converted people can really obey them too.