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Author Topic:   Information for MPW
Saviourmachine
Member (Idle past 3584 days)
Posts: 113
From: Holland
Joined: 01-16-2004


Message 18 of 27 (85870)
02-12-2004 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Percy
02-03-2004 12:50 PM


Re: Does Natural Selection Increase Information?
Percy writes:
Keep in mind that the Creationist argument is that evolution (meaning in this case reproduction and mutation) cannot increase information. This is clearly wrong. If the allele set size for a gene in a population is 8, then I=3. If there's a mutation and the allele set size grows to 9, then I=3.12. Creationist argument falsified.
I'm afraid it's not falsified in that way. Your simply stating that an extra allele will increase information. Is this a new allele? What are the influences on the cell? What kind of information are you speaking about?
Two examples:
1. this this
2. suppress this
- Does encoding for the second 'this' add information?
- Does the adding of 'suppress' add information? And the deletion of 'suppress'!?
For the rest I agree with Percy, not with ae.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Percy, posted 02-03-2004 12:50 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Percy, posted 02-12-2004 8:02 PM Saviourmachine has replied

  
Saviourmachine
Member (Idle past 3584 days)
Posts: 113
From: Holland
Joined: 01-16-2004


Message 23 of 27 (86176)
02-13-2004 7:39 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Percy
02-12-2004 8:02 PM


Information?
Analogy: If we have 10 text documents containing the words on line 1 (gene 1):
  • "This is a text document" for 5 of them
  • "This is a word document" for 5 of them
And there is a mutation, so one of them becomes
  • "This is a document"
Then the number of alleles increases from 2 to 3. And 'information' is added. I doubt that, I doubt the use of Shannons definition of information in this context.
Percy writes:
Keep in mind that the Creationist argument is that evolution (meaning in this case reproduction and mutation) cannot increase information. This is clearly wrong.
So, if you want to disprove this, you've to look at the kind of information for at least the analogy above. Not some pretty simple thing like Shannon's definition.
See here for a definition of information I suggested in the thread about complexity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Percy, posted 02-12-2004 8:02 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Percy, posted 02-13-2004 8:37 PM Saviourmachine has replied

  
Saviourmachine
Member (Idle past 3584 days)
Posts: 113
From: Holland
Joined: 01-16-2004


Message 25 of 27 (86312)
02-14-2004 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Percy
02-13-2004 8:37 PM


Re: Information?
Percy writes:
If you really think Shannon's definition is simple, or that it is insufficiently nuanced to represent genetic information, then I suggest you read his paper.
Now you're talking about genetic information. Doesn't it matter how the genes are decoded? In your claim you was talking about information in general.
I know something about telecommunication, compression techniques, and so on, of which Shannon's information type is the very basis.
I doubt the use of it in the context of information contained by a biological system. For example, the informative value of this post isn't easy to calculate. You want to count the different words I use? Or the amount of letters? So, what the nucleotides are encoding does matter, where the alleles encode for does matter, the function of decoded proteins does matter.
Lacks rigour, that's because I first want to define the terms in comprehensive way. You both are calculating things, without thinking about the context. I look at your maths the same way you did towards ea.
I'm going to read Shannon's paper anyway, because the original papers are most often easy (and even nice) to read. He should have said something about the range of his type of information.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Percy, posted 02-13-2004 8:37 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Percy, posted 02-16-2004 9:47 AM Saviourmachine has not replied

  
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