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Author Topic:   Can random mutations cause an increase in information in the genome?
Garrett
Member (Idle past 6196 days)
Posts: 111
From: Dallas, TX
Joined: 02-10-2006


Message 91 of 310 (286557)
02-14-2006 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by SuperNintendo Chalmers
02-14-2006 2:51 PM


Re: Good definition
I'm pretty sure you can't use the very term your trying to define in the definition. How can you compare to a truly random distribution if you have to compare that truly random distrubution to another truly random distribution to truly determine it's true randomness.
Honestly, I'm not being a smart*#@, just a point.
I would say random means there is no scientific property that guides it. We know that natural selection selects it, but can't pinpoint what guides it. Notice there is no concept of natural origination. In other words, natural selection by definition, can only select among things already existing. Selection, by definition, excludes certain choices due to the favorability of others. Seems clear that it's a loss specified complexity.

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mark24
Member (Idle past 5225 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 92 of 310 (286558)
02-14-2006 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Garrett
02-14-2006 1:30 PM


Re: Is information responsible for snowflake complexity also?
Garrett,
That is tantamount to saying that a pile of sand conveys meaning.
DNA doesn't convey meaning, either. It conveys as much information to you as a pile of sand.
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Garrett, posted 02-14-2006 1:30 PM Garrett has replied

Replies to this message:
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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 93 of 310 (286559)
02-14-2006 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by SuperNintendo Chalmers
02-14-2006 2:49 PM


Re: Good question Rand
1. Mutations that the organism has no control over
2. Mutations that can no be predicted using any current methodologies.
I think we call the mutations random because we have no way to predict what they will be.
Thanks for the tone of your post, btw.
I am not sure though that these definitions are helpful. First, just because the organism has no control over does not rule out the mutation being part of an embedded design, or actually being the result of direct intelligent action.
Secondly on point 2, I think the most likely reason we cannot predict mutations (we think we can predict mutation rates by the way) is that we don't know that much about them. Using your definition, then if we ever develop the means to know the likelihood of certain mutations, those mutations that were formerly random are now not random. That then doesn't work because a definition should not be dependant on our level of technology.

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ramoss
Member (Idle past 642 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 94 of 310 (286560)
02-14-2006 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by randman
02-14-2006 12:06 PM


Re: logical?
So you believe just mentioning "God" means one loses a debate, eh?
It depends on what the debate is. If the subject is science, then yes. If the subject basically is " I can not understand how it could be otherwise" when it comes to how life formed, or how the cosmos formed etc etc, it becomes an appeal to personal incrediblity.
An appeal to the lack of understanding on our part to be 'god' makes god retreat every time we do understand something. Disese used to be 'god's will'. We have better medicinces now, and we know about virus's and bacteria. We know about how weather works. We know what causes lightning strikes. We know the mechanmics about why tornado's form.
It isn't zues throwing those lightning bolts.. it isn't a curse from god that is causing people to catch the flu. And, it is starting to become clearer on how the first self replicating organic molecules formed on the early earth..

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 95 of 310 (286562)
02-14-2006 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Jazzns
02-14-2006 3:07 PM


what's good for the goose...
jazzns, just look at the difficulty here in defining random in the context of random mutations. I don't see you guys throwing out ToE because you lack a precise enough definition.
Maybe though you should?
Maybe we should say the whole theory of evolution does not meet basic scientific standards because evos have not provided precise, workable definitions of their claims of random mutations.

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Garrett
Member (Idle past 6196 days)
Posts: 111
From: Dallas, TX
Joined: 02-10-2006


Message 96 of 310 (286563)
02-14-2006 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by mark24
02-14-2006 3:12 PM


Re: Is information responsible for snowflake complexity also?
To start, let me say I love your signature. I've got the t-shirt.
In a sense, you are right. DNA, in and of itself, conveys no meaning. However, the specified complexity of the DNA does have meaning. It's like the alphabet. The letters themselves really have no meaning, and in a technical sense are just a medium for conveying meaning. Further, in order for the specified complexity of the order of the DNA strand to have meaning, it has to be interpreted by some sort of machinary (a translater if you will). This machinery exists within the cell.
The granules of sand on the beach have no specified complexity to their order, therefore carry no meaning to be interpreted even if there was a strange beach-side translator to do so.
That was the basic point...order doesn't convey meaning, specified complexity does.

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Replies to this message:
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SuperNintendo Chalmers
Member (Idle past 5864 days)
Posts: 772
From: Bartlett, IL, USA
Joined: 12-27-2005


Message 97 of 310 (286565)
02-14-2006 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by randman
02-14-2006 3:16 PM


Re: Good question Rand
I am not sure though that these definitions are helpful. First, just because the organism has no control over does not rule out the mutation being part of an embedded design, or actually being the result of direct intelligent action.
Interesting point there. Wouldn't we be able to detect this design or action through experimentation? (of course that might require knowing what the design is........)
I think the main issue here is that it doesn't matter whether the mutations are truly random or not. If they are mathematically random from our perspective it doesn't matter whether their is a designer or not. The universe would be the same regardless of whether this designer existed or not. If we can't detect any pattern behind mutation than it is effectively random to us. Using occam's razor we can discount the designer because he isn't having any measurable effect on mutation.
One could certainly believe in the designer on a supernatural level but I don't see the relevance to this discussion.
Have studies ever shown mutations to have a pattern or to be non-random in any way?

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22505
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 98 of 310 (286566)
02-14-2006 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Garrett
02-14-2006 2:11 PM


Re: Information Test
Garret writes:
As to why a species can't acquire information...it's because no known natural process can create specified complexity. In other words, no unintelligent process would know how to arrange the strand in an order that had any meaning to the translator.
I think it would help if you could provide a definition of specified complexity. If you could apply your definition to my example of a population's gene pool that acquires a new allele, that would be helpful.
In classical information theory, information is a measure of the number of different messages that can be communicated. My example goes like this. Imagine a population of organisms where a certain gene has eight different alleles. The amount of information for this gene is log28=3.
Now imagine that one of the newly born organisms possesses a mutation at this gene location that is different from the other 8 alleles, yielding a total of 9 alleles within the population, so the total information is now log29=3.12. Since 3.12>3, information in the population has increased.
How would you go through the same process of assessing whether new information has been created using specified complexity?
--Percy

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Garrett
Member (Idle past 6196 days)
Posts: 111
From: Dallas, TX
Joined: 02-10-2006


Message 99 of 310 (286568)
02-14-2006 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by ramoss
02-14-2006 3:21 PM


Re: logical?
One quick point here.
If a lack of logic and understanding is what forces a retreat to God as you say, can you give me a logical rebuttal to the following:
The universe (including time itself) can be shown to have had a beginning.
It is unreasonable to believe something could begin to exist without a cause.
The universe therefore requires a cause.
It is actually science that has taught us to ignore logic in the face of "evidence".

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mark24
Member (Idle past 5225 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 100 of 310 (286569)
02-14-2006 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Garrett
02-14-2006 3:24 PM


Re: Is information responsible for snowflake complexity also?
Garrett,
In a sense, you are right. DNA, in and of itself, conveys no meaning. However, the specified complexity of the DNA does have meaning
The best you could say is that DNA is potentially a language for conveying meaning, if you could show the language actually conveyed meaning. But then, how would you know? There is still no message with "meaning" in the DNA that is more than that of a pile of sand.
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 764 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 101 of 310 (286570)
02-14-2006 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Garrett
02-14-2006 3:01 PM


the actual trigger that prevents malaria is the fact that the mutation causes the hemoglobin to form in the wrong shape and fail to carry oxygen.
That doesn't appear to be the case. People with hemoglobin C or HbS carry malaria parasite loads in their red blood cells just fine. These mutations, however, reduce the formation of little "pimples" that Plasmodium induces on the RBC surface. These bumps appear to be what makes malarial cells clump and cause the most debilitating symptoms of malaria.
And hemoglobin S still carries oxygen. It just crystallizes in a odd way when it's deoxygenated, causing cells to sickle. Hemoglobin C doesn't even do this: it frequently never causes symptoms in its possessers at all.

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 102 of 310 (286571)
02-14-2006 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Garrett
02-14-2006 1:39 PM


Calculate "meaning"
Now you've got another term: "meaning"
Calculate the meaning of the DNA of a pig and a dog please. Or pic a short streatch of DNA (as in Message 13 ) and calculate the "meaning".
You have NOT YET DEFINED YOUR TERMS!! (This is a way of saying we don't know what you are talking about--- and that is a slightly polite way of saying YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. )
Btw, the meaning of sentences are dredged up by applying grammer rules to limited sets of words. An almost USELESS analogy for DNA since DNA "rules" allow almost ANY "sentence" ( with a few specific markers) to be a meaningful sentence.
To analogize this:
The DNA grammer rules are close to sentence writing rules that say:
Anything made up of any combination of the specified 26 letters; beginning with a Capitol and ending with a period is a meaningful sentence.
To the degree that you don't understand that you will not make any progress at all on this topic.

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22505
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 103 of 310 (286573)
02-14-2006 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Garrett
02-14-2006 3:24 PM


Re: Is information responsible for snowflake complexity also?
Garrett writes:
The granules of sand on the beach have no specified complexity to their order, therefore carry no meaning to be interpreted even if there was a strange beach-side translator to do so.
That is only your interpretation of the sand on the beach. How do you tell the difference between a beach where each grain of sand has been placed precisely according to a certain purpose, and another beach where this was not done?
Such questions cannot be answered. In the same way, you cannot tell the difference between a specified and an unspecified genome. The attribution of specified complexity is a subjective opinion, not a mathematical derivation.
--Percy

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SuperNintendo Chalmers
Member (Idle past 5864 days)
Posts: 772
From: Bartlett, IL, USA
Joined: 12-27-2005


Message 104 of 310 (286574)
02-14-2006 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Garrett
02-14-2006 3:24 PM


Here we go
I should have looked here earlier:
It is hard to understand how anyone could make this claim, since anything mutations can do, mutations can undo. Some mutations add information to a genome; some subtract it. Creationists get by with this claim only by leaving the term "information" undefined, impossibly vague, or constantly shifting. By any reasonable definition, increases in information have been observed to evolve. We have observed the evolution of
* increased genetic variety in a population (Lenski 1995; Lenski et al. 1991)
* increased genetic material (Alves et al. 2001; Brown et al. 1998; Hughes and Friedman 2003; Lynch and Conery 2000; Ohta 2003)
* novel genetic material (Knox et al. 1996; Park et al. 1996)
* novel genetically-regulated abilities (Prijambada et al. 1995)
If these do not qualify as information, then nothing about information is relevant to evolution in the first place.
# A mechanism that is likely to be particularly common for adding information is gene duplication, in which a long stretch of DNA is copied, followed by point mutations that change one or both of the copies. Genetic sequencing has revealed several instances in which this is likely the origin of some proteins. For example:
* Two enzymes in the histidine biosynthesis pathway that are barrel-shaped, structural and sequence evidence suggests, were formed via gene duplication and fusion of two half-barrel ancestors (Lang et al. 2000).
* RNASE1, a gene for a pancreatic enzyme, was duplicated, and in langur monkeys one of the copies mutated into RNASE1B, which works better in the more acidic small intestine of the langur. (Zhang et al. 2002)
* Yeast was put in a medium with very little sugar. After 450 generations, hexose transport genes had duplicated several times, and some of the duplicated versions had mutated further. (Brown et al. 1998)
The biological literature is full of additional examples. A PubMed search (at PubMed) on "gene duplication" gives more than 3000 references.
# According to Shannon-Weaver information theory, random noise maximizes information. This is not just playing word games. The random variation that mutations add to populations is the variation on which selection acts. Mutation alone will not cause adaptive evolution, but by eliminating nonadaptive variation, natural selection communicates information about the environment to the organism so that the organism becomes better adapted to it. Natural selection is the process by which information about the environment is transferred to an organism's genome and thus to the organism (Adami et al. 2000).
# The process of mutation and selection is observed to increase information and complexity in simulations (Adami et al. 2000; Schneider 2000
This is directly taken from talkorigins.
CB102: Mutations adding information
Here is more good information:
The Evolution of Improved Fitness
While it is true that most mutations are either harmful, as suggested by the creationists, or neutral, the creationists gloss over a crucial fact: beneficial mutations do occur, though they are very rare. Can a beneficial mutation that occurs once in million individuals ever really contribute to evolution? Yes it can, since a rare beneficial mutation can confer a survival or reproductive advantage to the individuals that carry it, thereby leading -- over several generations -- to the spread of this mutation throughout a population. Beneficial mutations occurring in several different individuals in several different genes can simultaneously spread through a population, and can be followed by successive rounds of additional mutation and selection.
Does the fact that we know many human detrimental mutations but essentially no clear beneficial ones mean that there are have been no beneficial mutations in human history? Not at all, since there is a clear bias in what medical scientists have studied. The human mutations we know most about are detrimental because medical scientists preferentially study illnesses that cause significant morbidity and mortality. Consider the theoretical possibility that a beneficial mutation has occurred in a particular human gene; even if this mutation were identified by a comparison of the mutated gene in a child versus the unmutated version of the same gene in both parents, there is no way that this mutation could ever be recognized as beneficial. If the mutation increased intelligence, strength, longevity or specific disease resistance, this would never be apparent without long-term breeding experiments that could obviously never be done on humans. Therefore, since such beneficial mutations in humans could never be recognized in humans, our ignorance of examples cannot be taken as evidence that they don't exist. However, the experiments necessary to demonstrate a beneficial mutation can be done with laboratory organisms that multiply rapidly, and indeed such experiments have shown that rare beneficial mutations can occur. For instance, from a single bacterium one can grow a population in the presence of an antibiotic, and demonstrate that organisms surviving this culture have mutations in genes that confer antibiotic resistance. In this case (in contrast to the situation with the peppered moth populations described above) origin of the population from a single bacterium allows comparisons of the mutated genes with the corresponding genes from the original bacterium, verifying that the variant sequences were not present before the culture with antibiotics and therefore arose as de novo beneficial mutations.
Since it appears most mutations are harmful that clearly rules out a designer (well, it doesn't rule out an evil designer I suppose.... but I'm pretty sure no one is looking for one of those).
While a detailed mathematical consideration of information theory is beyond the scope of this article, none of the creationist arguments based on information theory that I am aware of adequately address the obvious increase in information that can occur when a gene duplicates and the two copies undergo independent mutations leading to two genes with somewhat different functions. Gene duplication, mutation and selection are all known to occur due to natural biochemical processes in a variety of organisms studied in the laboratory. Many gene families are known with members that encode proteins having related structure and related but distinct function. Each family can be explained by multiple gene duplications followed by random mutation and differentiation of the functions of the individual gene copies. Clearly the expansion from a single primordial gene to a large family of genes with distinct functions represents an increase in genetic information.
An example that I have already mentioned in another posting on Talk.Origins is the hemoglobin/myoglobin family. The gene for a primordial oxygen-carrying protein is thought to have duplicated leading to separate genes encoding myoglobin (the oxygen-carrying protein of muscle) and hemoglobin (the oxygen-carrying protein of red blood cells). Then the hemoglobin gene duplicated, and the copies differentiated into the forms known as alpha and beta. Later, both the alpha and beta hemoglobin genes duplicated several times producing a cluster of hemoglobin-alpha-related sequences and a cluster of hemoglobin-beta-related sequences. The clusters include functional genes that are slightly different, that are expressed at different times during the development of the embryo to the adult, and that encode proteins specifically adapted to those developmental periods. Other examples of gene families that appear to have developed by such duplication and differentiation include the immunoglobulin superfamily (comprising a large variety of cell surface proteins), the family of seven-membrane-spanning domain proteins (including receptors for light, odors, chemokines and neurotransmitters), the G-protein family (some members of which transduce the signals of the seven-membrane-spanning domain family proteins), the serine protease family (digestive and blood coagulation proteins) and the homeobox family (proteins critical in development). A large part of the increase in information in our genomes compared with those of "lower" organisms apparently results from such gene duplication followed by independent evolution and differentiation of duplicated copies into multiple genes with distinct function. If an information theory analysis claims that random mutation cannot lead to an increase in information but the analysis ignores gene duplication and differentiation through independent mutations, such an analysis is irrelevant as a model for gene evolution, regardless of its mathematical sophistication.
This message has been edited by SuperNintendo Chalmers, 02-14-2006 03:39 PM

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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 764 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 105 of 310 (286575)
02-14-2006 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Garrett
02-14-2006 3:31 PM


Re: logical?
It is unreasonable to believe something could begin to exist without a cause.
The universe therefore requires a cause.
But any and all Gods get a free pass today, and don't have to abide by this rule as long as they are 4 feet 6 inches or taller.

This message is a reply to:
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