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Author Topic:   Are human tails an example of macroevolution?
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 61 (354429)
10-05-2006 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by bernd
09-28-2006 9:24 PM


The tale of a tail
For creationists the human tail is the result of a mutation and not “the recurrence of a formerly expressed allele” - as Faith put it - because that would be evidence for a shared ancestor of humans and great apes.
There is no musculature, nerve endings, or ligaments attached to these anamolies. All it is either a protuberant coccyx or distended skin, not a tail. Aside from which, if humans developed atavisms that are not normally expressed alleles, one might expect to see traits that are more current to the evolutionary timescale. What I mean to say is that if humans are indeed primates and we trace our lineage back to primates with tails, we are taling about hundreds of millions of years in between. Why wouldn't excessive body hair be a more prominent atavism than tails when there has been a hundreds of millions of years of disparity in between? It seems much more reasonable to recognize that these are deformities just like any other deformity, not tails.
For one this implies that benefical mutations should be quite common. Only in this century there are several documented cases where humans where born with a moveable tail containing connective tissue, nerves, blood vessels and muscles. In three cases tails containing vertebrae have been reported.
I've yet to hear of any cases where they were able to move their 'tails'. If you have any links to support the claim I would definitely like to peruse them. But even the event that some people were born with musculature and nerves in their distended coccyx, how would this be an example of beneficial mutation? If these people were born with opposable tails and could leap from tree to tree from their tails, I would certainly concede. But as of now its been reported as a discomfort when people sit down, in which case, I hardly see how it could be deemed beneficial.
Edited by nemesis_juggernaut, : typo

"There is not in all America a more dangerous trait than the deification of mere smartness unaccompanied by any sense of moral responsibility." -Theodore Roosevelt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by bernd, posted 09-28-2006 9:24 PM bernd has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by bernd, posted 10-06-2006 1:52 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 38 by Jazzns, posted 10-09-2006 11:04 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 61 (354541)
10-05-2006 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Brad McFall
10-05-2006 5:08 PM


Re: A radiograph of a human tail
Look at a snake and notice that some pythons have "legs" or spurs rather. Does this mean by this anatomy that a snakes legs are just anomalous growths or do they have some function that might be selected for and result in populationally variant allele fluctuations for its existence? Well, snakes DO use thier "spurs" during courtship, so it is possible that their legs are not like a human tail as Gish suspected as being caused by deviant embryogeny but instead are mutations that who knows, might cause snakes to HAVE longer legs in the future.
A similar argument has been made for cetaceans with "legs" that leaves me undesired. Those are anchor points similar to a snakes spurs that aid in copulation. This, to me, is just another case of percieved lineage that relies on circumstantial evidence to present its case. Certain scientists may be inclined to claim that they are atavistic legs when in reality all it is an anchoring mechanism to aid in sex.
If these "tails" really are vestigial, why would this phenomenon of turning on specific loci present itself more regularly in, say, Chimps or Apes? According to most pro-evolutionary anthropologists, chimps and apes are more closely related to a Rhesus Macaque, so why wouldn't these atavistic traits present themselves in more related species? Is it because its not a tail at all but rather a deformity?

"There is not in all America a more dangerous trait than the deification of mere smartness unaccompanied by any sense of moral responsibility." -Theodore Roosevelt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Brad McFall, posted 10-05-2006 5:08 PM Brad McFall has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 19 by AdminNosy, posted 10-05-2006 7:24 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 22 by anglagard, posted 10-05-2006 8:59 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 26 by ReverendDG, posted 10-06-2006 4:48 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 30 by Brad McFall, posted 10-06-2006 4:49 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 39 by Jazzns, posted 10-09-2006 11:07 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 61 (354566)
10-05-2006 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by AdminNosy
10-05-2006 7:24 PM


Re: Being careful to read posts to you.
NJ, I'd like to remind you to read carefully posts made in reply to you.
It is polite and shows some intellectual honesty to respond when you are corrected about some misapprenhension of fact that you have shown.
Failure to discuss in a polite and honest fashion will result in short suspensions. (A lot of them).
Okay, what did I say that intellectually dishonest and where was I impolite to the point where you feel warranted in threatening me with suspensions...... (lots of them)?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by AdminNosy, posted 10-05-2006 7:24 PM AdminNosy has replied

Replies to this message:
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