Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 66 (9078 total)
89 online now:
Dredge, Phat (2 members, 87 visitors)
Newest Member: harveyspecter
Post Volume: Total: 895,158 Year: 6,270/6,534 Month: 463/650 Week: 1/232 Day: 1/28 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Directly Observed Mutation
RustyShackelford 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 31 of 50 (154909)
11-01-2004 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Loudmouth
11-01-2004 2:28 PM


Re: micro - macro
Loudmouth, but if the people haven't mutated, then they haven't evolved, right?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Loudmouth, posted 11-01-2004 2:28 PM Loudmouth has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by NosyNed, posted 11-01-2004 2:35 PM RustyShackelford has not replied
 Message 38 by crashfrog, posted 11-01-2004 2:44 PM RustyShackelford has not replied
 Message 39 by NosyNed, posted 11-01-2004 2:45 PM RustyShackelford has not replied
 Message 40 by Loudmouth, posted 11-01-2004 3:08 PM RustyShackelford has not replied
 Message 43 by coffee_addict, posted 11-01-2004 3:33 PM RustyShackelford has not replied

  
coffee_addict
Member
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 32 of 50 (154910)
11-01-2004 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by RustyShackelford
11-01-2004 2:29 PM


Re: micro - macro
RustyShackelford writes:

Contrary to this (and despite Crash and Lam playing dumb), micro-evolution is no evidence for the unlimited variablity of living things.


Could you please look at Message 4 and tell me if those are examples of macro or micro evolution? And stop trying to dodge this one.


He's not dead. He's electroencephalographically challenged.

The longest word in the English language is pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-01-2004 2:29 PM RustyShackelford has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-01-2004 2:37 PM coffee_addict has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8971
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 33 of 50 (154914)
11-01-2004 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by RustyShackelford
11-01-2004 2:31 PM


All people have mutated.
Rusty, you and I carry a few mutation each. I've read that the average is about 5 or 6 new mutations for each individual human. So there are some 10's of billions of new mutations being tested by the environment as we speak.

That does NOT include the variations that result by the process of producing and combining new sex cells. That is just the mutations that do NOT come from our parents.

We are ALL X-people!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-01-2004 2:31 PM RustyShackelford has not replied

  
RustyShackelford 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 34 of 50 (154915)
11-01-2004 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by coffee_addict
11-01-2004 2:32 PM


Re: micro - macro
Can you give me proof that this animal's existance was caused by evolution?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by coffee_addict, posted 11-01-2004 2:32 PM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by AdminNosy, posted 11-01-2004 2:42 PM RustyShackelford has not replied
 Message 41 by coffee_addict, posted 11-01-2004 3:29 PM RustyShackelford has not replied
 Message 47 by Steen, posted 11-09-2004 3:32 AM RustyShackelford has not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8971
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 35 of 50 (154918)
11-01-2004 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by RustyShackelford
11-01-2004 2:29 PM


Why isn't micro evolution evidence
Contrary to this (and despite Crash and Lam playing dumb), micro-evolution is no evidence for the unlimited variablity of living things.

This is a bit of a bald assertion. The question for you is:

Why isn't it evidence?

It may not, by itself, be all the evidence needed but the existance of micro-evolutionary changes is the obviously needed underpinnings for larger cumulative changes.

Since we have seen (and you will have examples by now and were given some in post 4 it seems) macro evolutionary changes as well you now need to tell us what the mechanism is that stops small changes from cummulating.

This message has been edited by NosyNed, 11-01-2004 04:54 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-01-2004 2:29 PM RustyShackelford has not replied

  
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 36 of 50 (154919)
11-01-2004 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by RustyShackelford
11-01-2004 2:37 PM


What constitutes proof?
Can you give me proof that this animal's existance was caused by evolution?

What do you need for proof? There is no good giving examples until you make it clear what you want.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-01-2004 2:37 PM RustyShackelford has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 784 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 37 of 50 (154920)
11-01-2004 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by RustyShackelford
11-01-2004 2:26 PM


But is there any evidence for it occuring?

Loads. Happens all the time:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html

It's called "speciation." It happens when you separate a population into two subpopulations that no longer have the opportunity to interbreed. As muations accumulate, the two populations lose any ability to interbreed, so even if you tried to merge them again, they wouldn't be able to breed.

Contrary to this (and despite Crash and Lam playing dumb), micro-evolution is no evidence for the unlimited variablity of living things.

Well, yeah, actually, it is. If there's a barrier to variability on that level, how come we've never run into it, or into any mechanism that might cause it?

If you assert that there is one, it's up to you to substantiate that claim.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-01-2004 2:26 PM RustyShackelford has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 784 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 38 of 50 (154921)
11-01-2004 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by RustyShackelford
11-01-2004 2:31 PM


Loudmouth, but if the people haven't mutated, then they haven't evolved, right?

Not so. Evolution is simply a change in allele frequencies. That change can occur via selection, or mutation, or by reproductive isolation (which, like death, takes some number of genes out of the gene pool.)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-01-2004 2:31 PM RustyShackelford has not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8971
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 39 of 50 (154922)
11-01-2004 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by RustyShackelford
11-01-2004 2:31 PM


Mutations in Humans
Loudmouth, but if the people haven't mutated, then they haven't evolved, right?

Rusty, I've read that each human carries about 5 or so mutations on average. That means that there are a few 10's of billions of new mutations being tested by the environment as we speak.

These are actual new mutations not the wide range of genetic diversity that is generated in the formation and fusing of sex cells. All of which is part of the diversity that is available for natural selection to work on.

We are all X-people!

Additionally Loud said:

What we are talking about is new mutations previously not found in the gene pool of a species. One example is hemoglobin C, a new type of hemoglobin created by a single mutation.

That is this IS a mutation in humans.

This message has been edited by NosyNed, 11-01-2004 02:47 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-01-2004 2:31 PM RustyShackelford has not replied

  
Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 50 (154940)
11-01-2004 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by RustyShackelford
11-01-2004 2:31 PM


Re: micro - macro
quote:
Loudmouth, but if the people haven't mutated, then they haven't evolved, right?

They have evolved. They acquired a new gene through mutation (hemoglobin C) that is selected for by the environment. This is evolution in action. They are still human, but they are different than the humans that came before them.

Edited to add recent research on hemoglobin C:

J Infect Dis. 2004 Sep 1;190(5):1006-9. Epub 2004 Jul 26. Related Articles, Links

Hemoglobin C and resistance to severe malaria in Ghanaian children.

Mockenhaupt FP, Ehrhardt S, Cramer JP, Otchwemah RN, Anemana SD, Goltz K, Mylius F, Dietz E, Eggelte TA, Bienzle U.

Institute of Tropical Medicine, Medical Faculty Charite, Humboldt University, Berlin, Germany. frank.mockenhaupt@charite.de

Hemoglobin (Hb) C has been reported to protect against severe malaria. It is unclear whether relative resistance affects infection, disease, or both. Its extent may vary between regions and with disease pattern. We conducted a case-control study of children with severe malaria, asymptomatic parasitemic children, and healthy children in Ghana. HbAC did not prevent infection but reduced the odds of developing severe malaria and severe anemia. Protection was stronger with HbAS. The frequencies of HbCC and HbSC decreased, from healthy children to asymptomatic parasitemic children to children with severe malaria. These data support the notion that natural selection of HbC occurs because of the relative resistance it confers against severe malaria but argue against the notion that HbC offers resistance to infection.

J Evol Biol. 2004 Jan;17(1):221-4. Related Articles, Links

Estimation of relative fitnesses from relative risk data and the predicted future of haemoglobin alleles S and C.

Hedrick P.

School of Life Sciences, Arizona State University, Tempe, AR 85287, USA. philip.hedrick@asu.edu

Epidemiological studies of genetic differences in disease susceptibility often estimate the relative risks (RR) of different genotypes. Here I provide an approach to calculate the relative fitnesses of different genotypes based on RR data so that population genetic approaches may be utilized with these data. Using recent RR data on human haemoglobin beta genotypes from Burkina Faso, this approach is used to predict changes in the frequency of the haemoglobin sickle-cell S and C alleles. Overall, it generally appears that allele C will quickly replace the S allele in malarial environments. Explicit population genetic predictions suggest that this replacement may occur within the next 50 generations in Burkina Faso. emphasis mine

This message has been edited by Loudmouth, 11-01-2004 03:13 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-01-2004 2:31 PM RustyShackelford has not replied

  
coffee_addict
Member
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 41 of 50 (154960)
11-01-2004 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by RustyShackelford
11-01-2004 2:37 PM


Re: micro - macro
RustyShackelford writes:

Can you give me proof that this animal's existance was caused by evolution?


Well, there's no such thing as proving whether something is as a result of evolution or not. However, the examples I gave clearly show the rise of new species due to mutation and natural selection. Other than that, I can assure you that none of the scientists that were present to observe the new species observe an old man with white beard poking at the animal and making new species out of them.

I would also like to point out that you are trying to move the goal post. To be honest, I'm a little annoyed by this. First you ask for specific examples of observed speciation and I gave you some. Then, you try to change the topic and question whether it was divine intervention or evolution that was responsible for the speciation.

Pick a topic and stay with it! If you want to question whether speciation is a result of evolution or not, start a freaking new topic.


He's not dead. He's electroencephalographically challenged.

The longest word in the English language is pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-01-2004 2:37 PM RustyShackelford has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by crashfrog, posted 11-01-2004 3:33 PM coffee_addict has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 784 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 42 of 50 (154962)
11-01-2004 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by coffee_addict
11-01-2004 3:29 PM


You're Selling Yourself Short
Well, there's no such thing as proving whether something is as a result of evolution or not.

No, you just did prove it:

However, the examples I gave clearly show the rise of new species due to mutation and natural selection.

See? That's all there is to it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by coffee_addict, posted 11-01-2004 3:29 PM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by coffee_addict, posted 11-01-2004 3:35 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
coffee_addict
Member
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 43 of 50 (154963)
11-01-2004 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by RustyShackelford
11-01-2004 2:31 PM


Re: micro - macro
What about sickel cell that we find in people of African origin? If you are a heterozygous then you are immune to malaria. If you are a homozygous then you have sickel cell disease. The mutation practically saved the African population thousands of years ago. Is that an example of mutation that contributed to human evolution?


He's not dead. He's electroencephalographically challenged.

The longest word in the English language is pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-01-2004 2:31 PM RustyShackelford has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by crashfrog, posted 11-01-2004 3:35 PM coffee_addict has not replied

  
coffee_addict
Member
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 44 of 50 (154964)
11-01-2004 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by crashfrog
11-01-2004 3:33 PM


Re: You're Selling Yourself Short
I think he was trying to say "how do you know god didn't intervene and created those species?"


He's not dead. He's electroencephalographically challenged.

The longest word in the English language is pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by crashfrog, posted 11-01-2004 3:33 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 784 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 45 of 50 (154965)
11-01-2004 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by coffee_addict
11-01-2004 3:33 PM


What about sickel cell that we find in people of African origin? If you are a heterozygous then you are immune to malaria. If you are a homozygous then you have sickel cell disease.

How about the new one, where if you have it, you have the malarial resistance without the anemia?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by coffee_addict, posted 11-01-2004 3:33 PM coffee_addict has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.1
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2022