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Author Topic:   Is genetic homeostasis a barrier to 'macro' evolution?
Modulous
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 1 of 18 (282976)
01-31-2006 7:23 PM


In Message 178, Herepton (Ray) brought up the subject of Genetic Homeostasis. He claims that this demonstrates that evolution cannot happen past the 'kind' barrier.

The retort to this is that genetic homeostasis only applies to large populations, not 'kinds'. If that population is reduced in size, or if part of that population becomes isolated, the homeostasis effect vanishes.

I thought that this would make an interesting discussion in its own right, and would give a place for Ray, crash and anyone else to continue the discussion here since it is probably too broad to continue much longer in the 'Chimpanzee-human genetic gap' thread.

My own position is the one that is contradictory from Ray's (as you might expect), but I am not massively well versed in the concept so I hope to use this thread to learn a little about genetic homeostasis, as well as to debate its implications. To kick start the thread I'll post a quick definition from here


The tendency of mendelian populations to maintain a constant genetic composition in the face of external pressure. Although selection in nature operates on individuals, interbreeding populations as a whole as a by-product of mendelian segregation also have properties of which the Hardy-Weinberg equilibrium of gene and genotype frequencies is a notable example. As a result of selection, gene pools are integrated and tend to maintain an optimal balance of gene frequencies at different loci (Sewall Wright's adaptive peaks). When subjected to such pressures as artificial selection (usually for some quantitative trait) or temporary environmental changes, genetic homeostatic mechanisms tend to restore to equilibrium gene frequencies that may have shifted from mean optimal values.

This message has been edited by Modulous, Wed, 01-February-2006 02:42 AM


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AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 2 of 18 (282989)
01-31-2006 8:40 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

Thank you Modulus for recognizing that this needed to be a topic of it's own.

This message has been edited by AdminNosy, 01-31-2006 08:41 PM


  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 18 (283009)
01-31-2006 9:43 PM


Unless someone else is interested in the issue, there's nothing to discuss. Ray isn't apparently capable of anything except repeated repetition of demonstrated falsehoods and hilariously unlikely claims of his opponent's dishonorable behavior.

  
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 3369 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 4 of 18 (283201)
02-01-2006 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Modulous
01-31-2006 7:23 PM


some of Lerners' own thoughts on it

Click to enlarge


Click to enlarge

This is basic"" information on genetic homeostasis that I found useful. It is from Lerner's
Genetic Basis of Selection
some of which is available on-line.
http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=98619083


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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1384 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 5 of 18 (284772)
02-07-2006 9:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Modulous
01-31-2006 7:23 PM


I just discovered this topic.

I will be participating soon, unless I get banned which is always a distinct possibility.

Ray


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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1384 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 6 of 18 (284785)
02-07-2006 9:17 PM


Amendment
I will not be participating since I am in the process of writing a paper showing why GH is a fact with no backdoor like Crashfrog claims.

My paper and its evidence is invulnerable.

When it is finished (April 2006) I will post an infuriating section of text with the link; topic title will be: "Dr. Gene Scott's Invulnerable Falsification of Darwinism"

Ray


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NosyNed
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Posts: 8868
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003
Member Rating: 6.5


Message 7 of 18 (284823)
02-08-2006 12:29 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Cold Foreign Object
02-07-2006 9:17 PM


Your paper
Shall I mark my calendar for April 30th? Or would April 1st be far more appropriate?

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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 18 (284826)
02-08-2006 12:32 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Cold Foreign Object
02-07-2006 9:17 PM


Re: Amendment
I will not be participating since I am in the process of writing a paper showing why GH is a fact with no backdoor like Crashfrog claims.

This would be a new paper, then? New topic?

Wouldn't it be better to get that first paper out before starting the next one? You'll never get published at this rate.

"Dr. Gene Scott's Invulnerable Falsification of Darwinism"

Priceless, priceless. At least you set your sights high.


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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1384 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 9 of 18 (285048)
02-08-2006 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by NosyNed
02-08-2006 12:29 AM


Re: Your paper
Shall I mark my calendar for April 30th? Or would April 1st be far more appropriate?

Very clever and truly funny, however. When my paper is up there will be no joy in evo-land. Dr. Scott has smashed your theory and the beauty of it is that your own arguments prove our case. This means there is nothing you can do.

My "Final Master Conclusion" is original; wholly invulnerable and impenetrable. I have the entire ToE in my merciless hand. Remember this post.

Ray Martinez, Protestant Evangelical Paulinist

This message has been edited by Herepton, 02-08-2006 02:54 PM

This message has been edited by Herepton, 02-08-2006 02:55 PM


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ramoss
Member
Posts: 3123
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 10 of 18 (285049)
02-08-2006 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Cold Foreign Object
02-08-2006 5:53 PM


Re: Your paper
Riggghtt.

I am sure that it won't be published in a biological journal. It might be an anti-science religious site.. if that. I am sure that it won't be a science journal.


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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8868
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003
Member Rating: 6.5


Message 11 of 18 (285068)
02-08-2006 7:02 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by ramoss
02-08-2006 5:56 PM


remembering and publishing
I've noted the post in my calendar ramoss. I don't think you have to worry about where it will be published. Since the author has demonstrated a difficulty with the use of firm evidence and logic it is not likely to be "published" anywhere.

This is the same guy who when a map and the great pyramid are refered to jumps to the height of the pyramid as if that is an answer to the map referring. This is the same guy who doesn't get it when it is pointed out how the height measurements are flawed. I don't think we have to be getting excited about any major step forward in science appearing April.

In fact, I suspect that come the merry month of May there will be no "paper" at all. There might be an incoherent mess that has already been discussed and blown to bits here but nothing new.


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jar
Member
Posts: 31753
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 12 of 18 (285071)
02-08-2006 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by NosyNed
02-08-2006 7:02 PM


Re: remembering and publishing
Oh, it will be published. There are place like CreationWiki that will publish it.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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AdminAsgara
Administrator (Idle past 638 days)
Posts: 2073
From: The Universe
Joined: 10-11-2003


Message 13 of 18 (285092)
02-08-2006 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by NosyNed
02-08-2006 7:02 PM


Re: remembering and publishing
Ray has been offered space here at EvC to host his paper. I hope he takes us up on the offer. I also hope that others here do not beat up on it before it is even done.

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8868
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003
Member Rating: 6.5


Message 14 of 18 (285109)
02-08-2006 11:47 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by AdminAsgara
02-08-2006 9:22 PM


beating up prematurely
Of course, one should not judge until the actual evidence is at hand.

However, when one is allocating effort one has to make judgements based on past history. A miracle indeed will be needed.


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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1384 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 15 of 18 (285287)
02-09-2006 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by jar
02-08-2006 7:10 PM


Re: remembering and publishing
Oh, it will be published. There are place like CreationWiki that will publish it.

The entire point of writing the paper is for it to be Internet available and read. Chris Ashcraft/CreationWiki agreed to host the article with protected status. Ash MAY balk because of size (300-400 kilobytes). Wiki liked my contribution here:

http://www.nwcreation.net/wiki/index.php?title=Darwin_himself_was_racist

But they are YEC's and I am not. If Wiki does not accept then I will promptly obtain my own website.

Title of work:

"Darwin"ism Refuted

The stunning Biblical explanation of the modern scientific attempt to erase the Creator. Based upon the interpretation of Romans 1:17-25 by Dr. Gene Scott Ph.D. Stanford University.

How the Texual evidence of the Bible correspopnds with reality and falsifies the Theory of Evolution"

Rest assured Darwinists; my Biblical evidence will be supported and corroborated with scientific evidence.

We know ToE is commonly compared to the Emperor's New Clothes metaphor. My work will prove WHY 40 percent of the American public thinks the Emperor is clothed and why the other 40 percent knows he is completely naked.

Ray

This message has been edited by Herepton, 02-09-2006 02:20 PM


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