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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1497 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 10 of 22 (400771)
05-16-2007 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by ogon
05-14-2007 2:07 PM


For me it doesn't quite answer the questions, where did I come from, where am I, and where am I going???
I imagine your parents can help you with the first, a map can help you with the second, and as for the third, you'll have to answer that yourself. You're on your way to wherever your legs are taking you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by ogon, posted 05-14-2007 2:07 PM ogon has replied

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 Message 11 by ogon, posted 05-16-2007 5:21 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1497 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 13 of 22 (400847)
05-16-2007 10:20 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by ogon
05-16-2007 5:21 PM


by that I ask, am I product of evolution?
You're a product of your parents having sexual intercourse. Hopefully you're old enough to have had that conversation with them? I'm reticent to go into detail on that subject.
If the beginning is 1 o'clock, and the end is midnight, what time is it now?
It doesn't have anything to do with you, personally. You are going to live a hopefully full life and then die. You won't undergo any evolutionary change - you'll just experience the changes of age. Evolution doesn't happen to individuals, so to answer your question - you're exactly where you were when you were born, and you're exactly where you're going to be when you die.
okay, I've been a fish, a reptile, an ape, what's next?
You've been no such thing. You were born a human, you'll live as one, and you'll die as one. Individuals don't undergo evolution; species do. You're a part of that in so much as you're different from your parents (as they were different from theirs.)
Perhaps I'm just confused?
A little bit. If it seems like I'm busting your chops its because scientific understanding only comes about when we ask very specific questions. Yours, because you're phrasing them like deep metaphysical inquiries, are all over the place - and they're all but useless for understanding evolution.

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 Message 11 by ogon, posted 05-16-2007 5:21 PM ogon has not replied

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 Message 15 by Parasomnium, posted 05-17-2007 4:44 AM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1497 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 16 of 22 (400894)
05-17-2007 9:16 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Parasomnium
05-17-2007 4:44 AM


I think, Crashfrog, you're doing Ogon an injustice by taking his obviously metaphorical description of evolutionary development literal and correcting it as such.
When he understands the plain facts of evolution, then he can have his Poetic License back. But metaphor does nothing to promote understanding until all parties understand the basis behind the metaphor.
The idea that species, not individuals, evolve is not immediately obvious to people. A lot of people think that evolution describes a process where a single individual mutates from fish to lizard to hominid. Until we've cleared away those potential misunderstandings I think metaphoric language is something best avoided. Otherwise it just gets in the way.
I think Ogon is asking legitimate questions and deserves appropriate answers (although maybe not in this particular thread), instead of barely concealed contempt.
I don't have any contempt to conceal. But we need to ensure that conversations with people who are neophytes - who are literally coming from a basis of total ignorance about evolution - proceed from a basis of as little misunderstanding as possible, and an understanding of evolution as the history of how we were all born as fishes is something that doesn't lend itself to clarity.

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 Message 15 by Parasomnium, posted 05-17-2007 4:44 AM Parasomnium has replied

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 Message 18 by Parasomnium, posted 05-17-2007 3:28 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1497 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 19 of 22 (400975)
05-17-2007 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by ogon
05-17-2007 2:41 PM


I would like to think at 50 years old, a teacher (okay not a science teacher!) and resonably intelligent I have a basic grasp of what both CREATION and EVOLUTION imply.
I don't mean to disparage your intellect, and I'm sure that you're plenty bright and perceptive.
Biology is a technical field. A lot of really groundbreaking developments have happened in the past decade, mostly thanks to a proliferation of cheap genetic analysis tools, and keeping up with that stuff takes more than a bright mind and an AARP card.
That's all I wanted to get across. Lest you get the wrong idea, I'm not a biologist myself (yet), just a dilettante, and I'm interested in whatever questions you might have. To help you, most people want to know things like:
1) Where do new species come from? What do we mean when we say "new species"?
2) How does the process of evolution cause organisms to evolve things like eyes or wings?
3) Is evolution something that proceeds towards a goal?
4) What does "survival of the fittest" mean? Does that mean I should shoot my fat neighbor?
and so on. If you want to know what you're supposed to do with your life, or something, that's not a question science is equipped to answer. If you want to know about the world of living things, that's what biological evolution was developed to explain.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by ogon, posted 05-17-2007 2:41 PM ogon has replied

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 Message 20 by ogon, posted 05-17-2007 4:51 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
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