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Author Topic:   Macroevolution Observed?
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1498 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 7 of 55 (92131)
03-12-2004 9:29 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Trump won
03-12-2004 8:43 PM


Could macro evolution occur without man's intervention?
Obviously, since it has.
But if it's not happening in a situation where you can constantly observe it, what are the odds that you're going to catch it in the act?

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 Message 6 by Trump won, posted 03-12-2004 8:43 PM Trump won has replied

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1498 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 10 of 55 (92173)
03-13-2004 2:32 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Trump won
03-12-2004 10:48 PM


Shouldn't there be wild nectarines some place?
Why? What's the survival advantage of being a nectarine instead of a peach?
If macroevolution is true, we should see some things - like many different species of organism based on one general body plan. (Check.) Or a fossil record showing transitional species. (Check.) Or adaption to environment. (Check.)
If you want to see an "event" of macroevolution, it's called "speciation". But since evolution is a gradual change you can't expect to observe a lizard turning into a mammal. It's like asking where the foothills end and the mountains begin.

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1498 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 17 of 55 (94630)
03-25-2004 3:41 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Milagros
03-25-2004 1:52 AM


How do we really know that the other fields of study POINT TO an, admittedly, un-observed and un-studied theory like Macroevolution?
Since the Lincoln Administration is neither observable or repeatable, how can we conclude that Abraham Lincoln was ever the President of the United States?
To you, what evidence does it take to substantiate hisorical claims? Somehow I doubt that you have a problem when other kinds of historical claims are made, such as in courtroom forensics (after all, a murder can't be repeated). Just because something happens in the past, or over a great period of time, doesn't mean we can't substantiate it with evidence.

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1498 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 27 of 55 (94736)
03-25-2004 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Milagros
03-25-2004 2:30 PM


Group A and Group B are different from the START? And you're saying that these different groups were interbreeding with each other? How would that be possible?
A group of persons from Germany is different than a group of persons from Nigeria. Nonetheless they are able to interbreed.
But if you took the group from Germany and put them on Mars, so that there was no longer any circumstance where genes could flow between the two groups, then the group on Mars would accrue mutations until they were no longer able to breed with the group in Nigeria, no matter what. At that point they would be different species. That's macroevolution - new species arising through reproductive isolation.

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1498 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 36 of 55 (94967)
03-26-2004 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Milagros
03-26-2004 1:07 PM


But it's the CHANGES WITHIN those Separated Groups that is the issue. What you guys don't realize is that there's a smoke screen occurring because the idea of "separation first, leads to macro" still does not explain how a Large Change like Macro occurs.
The thing I think you're missing is that macroevolution isn't an event, it's a result.
To illustrate, let's count to ten. 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10. Simple, right? Tiny little steps each time, right?
Now, where in that sequence did we go from one to ten? We did, right? We started with one, and now we have ten. That's a big change, so where did it happen? The answer is that going from one to ten isn't an event of counting, it's a result of counting.
Macroevolution is the result of a process that starts with reproductive isolation and is driven by incremental change over time. Eventually the accumulated change is sufficient that there are two separate species where before there were one. It's macroevolution, apparently, when the two groups pass some arbitrary measure of different-ness. (This ambiguity is why biologists don't generally use the term macroevolution; it's not very descriptive.)

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1498 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 43 of 55 (94978)
03-26-2004 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Milagros
03-26-2004 2:14 PM


But which is it, Me "being" separated by moving to Detroit or the fact that I've walked so far which makes me separate?
Now you're asking two separate questions. "What causes drastic change" and "what gives rise to new species" are two different questions with different answers.
In your analogy, what separates us is the fact that you walked to Detroit (the drastic change stemming from accumulating mutation) and the fact that I didn't go with you (the reproductive isolation).
Us being separated didn't get you to Detroit. Reproductive isolation doesn't cause adaptation, of course. What it does cause is noninterfertility. If the populations hadn't separated - if I had gone with you to Detroit - speciation wouldn't have happened, no matter how drastic the change was. No matter how far you go, if I went with you, we're still in the same place as each other.
Does that make it any clearer? It's the changes that get you to Detroit. But it's the fact that you went there alone that makes you a new species.

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