Ideas of Reality

Well, this topic is very close to my personal interest but it surprises me a bit as it seems off the mainstream of this site.Razd, have you read any of UG Krishnamurti? His books are available on the web for free. He claims to be living something along the lines of your idea.The Near Eastern religions seem to be so centered around language, the word, and all. I find much more wisdom in the Tao, Lao Tzu making it clear that reality is beyond language and is thus nameless, that the "Tao" is not it's name but since he is talking he has to call it something. It seems sad the west lacks this philosophical tradition.
So much of killing over the centuries down to the present in Iraq and Palastine stems from literalist trying to interpret the Word of God.
Korzybski said it so well, "The map is not the territory" well, unless you are a fundamentalist and then the territory is just where you kill those who disagree with you about the divine true map that you have been given by God.Good topic, thanks!lfen

The west also takes the self, the ego, for granted as real and enduring for a while if not for eternity. Looking out on the world the debates are largly between those who believe the old myths are literally true and those who take the more recent scientific approach. The scientific approach is beginning to redefine the self. I refer here to the very excellent books by Antonio Damasio.Attributed to the Buddha and fundamental to Buddhist teaching is that there is no permanent self(soul). The self is an idea, and the idea that it is permanent is false. The human organism is a very complex set of functions that includes this abstract language creating our concept of "reality"Science thus far studies matter/energy, apace/time, and information.
Living cells are complex structures built from recognized simpler atoms and molecules. Life is clearly part of the universe of matter, energy,and information and though more complex than inanimate processes is not discontinuous with the them.Consciousness not life is for me the great mystery. Scienctist can't quantify it so mathematics is not a tool to be used yet. Damasio and others are trying to account for consciousness as an emergent quality of neuronal complexity. That is a neccesary line of inquiry. The eastern position makes greater sense to me and that is that consciousness is a fundamental, and perhaps the fundamental property of the universe. The quantum physicist Schroedinger wrote, "consciousnous is a singular for which there exists no plural". I am not talking here of the contents of consciousness, such as knowledge or experience which are clearly multiplicities. But what is it that knows, that is aware? Or as Maharshi Ramana would put it, "Who is aware of all this language and sensory input?" What is here that is aware of the idea that all this sensory data and knowledge is a self, and what if anything remains when that notion drops away and the functioning of the organism is all that remains?lfen

This page links to all his books:IIS 8.5 Detailed Error - 500.19 - Internal Server ErrorJust to give you a taste I'll put this little quote in from that webpage:" My teaching, if that is the word you want to use, has no copyright. You are free to reproduce, distribute, interpret, misinterpret, distort, garble, do what you like, even claim authorship, without my consent or the permission of anybody."This guy is totally at peace with what is. Talk about going with the flow! It's gonna happen anyway, so he puts his blessings on it.lfen

Hi RAZD,you asked, "conversely is it possible for a human to live without being self-aware?"Well, there are people with brain damage or disease who live like that as a consequence of losing brain function, but I don't think that is what you are asking. Antonio Damasio's books include discussion along those lines.Two further sources if you haven't read them. This first book is wild but brilliant theorizing and a tour de force by Julian Jaynes:The Origins of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the BiCameral Mind.I just googled on Jaynes to check the title. Looks like some interesting sites out there I'll have to check out. Anyway, the books is brilliant and full of insights but I don't see how it's provable. Nevertheless its worth the read because of the scope and depth of his insights.The other book is by Bernadette Roberts and is called:
The Experience of No Self.This is a small book and one in which she does a good job of conveying that which can't be conveyed. She is a contemporary living in the US.
And as a result of her contemplation she reached the stage where the self dropped away. Her Catholic training in a convent was not sufficient to explain her experience to her. She finally found in a statement attributed to the Buddha confirmation of her experience. She did not become a Buddhist, but remains a Catholic. Zen of course is a sect or school of Buddhism and the core of Buddhism is Gautama Siddhartha's Awakening. Roberts does a great job of using western language and concepts to talk about her awakening experience.Roberts and Krishnamurti may be closer to your question about living without self awareness. Since you have Zen in your name I suspect you are interested in non duality. If there is a self there is not-self or other. Roberts is writing about what happens when the self disappears and All That Is is the subject there no longer being an object. Her experiences are very Buddhist but she remains Christian.I found both of these books in my local library.lfen