The Problem with Legalized Abortion

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Is the problem with legalized abortion due to the sheer numbers of babies being "murdered"?

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Many will say that it is, yet this position is usually a very inconsistently held one.Anti-choice advocates often have no problem with many forms of birth control which have the action of preventing implantation of what they would call babies. They also often have no problem, and in fact, very much support, in-vitro fertilization, which generally, for each treatment, kills around ten of what they would consider babies. They also don't seem to be too concerned with all of what they consider babies which fail to implant in uteruses being flushed down the toilet inside of used tampons. They also don't seem to trouble themselves with the problem women exercising a great deal, since doing so is known to interfere with implantation.Their "key objection" is that they don't believe women are capable of making medical, moral, and practical decisions about what is best for her own body and her family.All of this focus on making abortion illegal is a typical conservative response to a preventable issue.It surely appears to me that conservatives are far more "anti-sex" than they are "pro-baby".If they really, truly cared about reducing the need for abortion, they would be pushing hard for comprehensive reproductive health education for all people from an early age. They would be pushing hard for free and easy access to safe and effective birth control to anyone who wants it.Because the reality is that people, especially young people, have sex. Why religious conservatives think that keeping kids ignorant of contraception methods and making it difficult for people to get contraceptives somehow is effective in preventing unwanted pregnancy, I have no idea.If they really, truly cared about preventing abortion, then they should be willing to deal with the reality of people having sex.Edited by nator, : No reason given.

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I am very sure that you won't find any literature claiming the women cannot make decisions about their own bodies and must be controlled in some way.

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Uh, what about the Bible? I seem to remember a great deal in that book about how women should be submissive to, and accept the leadership of, men. Women should submit to men the way that men submit to God, according to the Bible, IIRC.I mean, the largest Protestant denomination in the country has explicity stated that at least married women are to "graciously submit" to the leadership of their husbands....like it says they should in the Bible.Isn't that pretty much the same as saying that, at least in the case of married women, that her husband, rather than she, has the final say regarding what happens in her life?And aren't laws which govern what happens inside women's uteruses kind of an obvious attemt to dictate the medical decision a woman may make? Isn't that a rather obvious attempt to control women "in some way"?

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The sex ed and contraceptive argument is something that many don't even associate with reduction in abortions.

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Then they are mindless followers who aren't operating within reality.

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Now, you mentioned a backlash over taking away its legal status. Maybe there would be. There is also the sentiment that making it illegal will produce similar effects in the drug trade. Making it illegal only makes for racketeering. Maybe this is so, and maybe this is just hype.

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Do you know anything at all about the history of abortion in this country before it was most recently legalized?

So, would it seem perfectly fine to you if you were compelled, by power of law, to donate your blood, no matter if you wanted to or not? Should we throw you in jail for murder if you refuse, since people can die due to lack of blood for transfusions? Would you be OK with the government requiring you to grow extra skin to provide skin grafts for dying burn victims, or take out one of your kidneys or a portion of your liver to save someone in organ failure's life?

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There is a vastly different role between mother and growing fetus, and people that are autonomous and otherwise independent of each other.

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Yes, I know.Juggs' argument is that the fertilized egg/zygote/fetus is an "autonomous and otherwise independent" entity.

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I would say the zygotes that failed to implant died of natural causes.

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So, does that mean that we should pass laws which make it illegal for women who just might be or who are pregnant to do things that might prevent implantation or damage the pregnancy, such as excercise a lot, drink alcohol, be in stressful situations, not eat properly, partake of certain foods, medicines and herbs, hold jobs that expose her to toxins, take birth control pills, use IUD's, etc.?After all, if a person is pregnant or might be pregnant and does any of these things and it results in the failure to implant, or even miscarriage, they are committing involuntary manslaughter, at the very least, aren't they?

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I guess we could declare soldiers as worthless based on the numbers that are sent to war to be killed by your logic.

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Soldiers aren't sent to war to be killed, they are sent to fight.Ideally, none of them would be killed, which is why we develop as much technology as we can to protect them from harm, even to the point of not using them at all, as in the case of long-range missiles and unmanned drone aircraft.That's a really poor comparison.Edited by nator, : No reason given.

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I could just as easily argue that this is an indication that anti-abortionists really care for the woman also. They are willing to allow the abortion for the sake of the distraught mother.

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But why? Isn't is still a murder of a child?If they don't care what the mother thinks about it at any other time, why should they care if she is raped?

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Why can't you say that the consent was implied by the mother and father participating in an act that would cause it to happen?

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If I consent to sex, is it also implied that I consented to getting a urinary tract infection?

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MMmmmmmmmm... maybe I missed that. I was understanding that they would have the rights of such, not that they be viewed as if they were physically such beings.

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I fail to see how one can have the rights of such but not be viewed as such.

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That's where I brought in the twin analogy. Taz did a nice job of breaking that down, but it was based on his personal philosophy. I'm not sure what your thoughts would be on it. I'd have expected him to say one twin can't dump another, but I bet wrong. How about you?

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I'm with Taz on that one.

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I would say the woman that has been raped, is at the maximum level of distress and should be allowed to have a abortion.

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But that might not be the case at all. some women might be very disstressed, but others might not be at "the maximum level". Who is going to be the arbiter of if she is distressed "enough"?Some women might have become pregnant after what all of us might have called a rape but she doesn't call it that. Is it OK for her to have an abortion if she isn't as distressed as we think she should be?

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But if a woman is not raped and has had unprotected sex with a man, but if there was no forceful sexual activity, she'll have a lower distress level , then that of a woman who has been raped.

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How can you possibly know this? A woman who is clinically depressed who has consentual sex and nothing forceful happened might be far, far more distressed about an unwanted pregnancy than a woman in good mental health who becomes pregnant as a result of a rape.Women are individuals, Amen. You can't make blanket assumptions about which events are going to cause more or less distress to every single woman, becasue each of them are different from each other.You know, in case you were wondering if women were, in fact, individual people.And what about if a person's birth control fails? Around half of all people who get abortions were using birth control at the time, you know.

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I consider the 14yr[if she is pregnant]she should not have a abortion, for 2 reasons:
1. She was not raped and has a low or mild level of distress[nothing major]

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2. Also I've been told that women mature faster then men, you should be mature enough to engage in sexual-intercourse, so if this 14yr old thinks she's mature enough to commit such an act such as this[because she wasn't raped] she should be mature enough to deal with it.

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So, is it your opinion that every single 14 year old girl is physically and psychologically mature enough to safely carry a pregnancy to term and give birth to it?You do know that giving birth is quite dangerous for young girls, don't you?

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btw where are the parents when this 14yr female teenager decides to engage in sexual-intercourse?

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They are probably Christians who kept her ignorant of sexual physiology and birth control.

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Is abortion legalized, because there are so many parents, who are not and should not be responsible enough to even have a child, nor have unprotected sex to begin with?

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No. Abortion is legal because nobody but me should get a say in what gets to grow inside my uterus. Edited by nator, : No reason given.

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Someone who studies Human behavior and can ID wither or not an individual is eligible for abortion.

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Are you saying that every person who studies human behavior will have exactly the same, unambiguous opinion with each and every woman or girl they evaluate?And what if a woman goes through what you an I would call a rape, but she isn't distressed? Should she be allowed an abortion?What about a clinically depressed woman who has not been raped but is very, very distressed by an unwanted pregnancy? Should she be prevented from gettingan abortion?

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Yes, but did they have protection during the sexual act?

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Er, that's what using birth control means.No form of birth control method, even sterilization, prevents pregnancy 100%.

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don't scientist consider condoms 99.9% protection from STD?

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Nope: source

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not to mention they have that little bubble where the male sperm is disposed, therefor no pregnancy should take place.

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Again, no contraceptive, including sterilization is 100% effective.

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Well if scientist are the the ones who say women mature faster then men, well for them to have sex[even unprotected sex] they should be mature enough to suffer the consequence.

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Are you saying that EVERY SINGLE 14 year old girl is physically and psychologically mature enough to safely carry a pregnancy to term and give birth to it?Can you please show me where scientists say that ALL 14 year old girls are mature enough to carry a pregnancy to term and give birth to it?Also, just because girls mature faster than boys, ON AVERAGE (as in, not every single girl will be more mature than every single boy of the same age), it doesn't mean that ANY 14 year old girls are physically or psychologically mature enough to carry a pregnancy to term and give birth to it.

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Sex is performed by 2 mature adults.

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Or by barely pubescent children.

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So if a 14yr old engages in something she isn't ready for, she should suffer the consequences for her actions or you can spoil her[like some parents do to their daughters] it is wrong for some to be rewarded for what they did was wrong, therefor their parents don't set a good example for their child.

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So, you want to punish her for opening her legs by forcing her to give birth.Is that about right?

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oh I'm sorry, do you want me to show sympathy towards young girls who will be disciplined for the wrongful actions they themselves committed? No Thank you, I will not even shed a tear for them.

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How very compassionate and Christ-like of you.I am sure that Jesus would treat these girls in just the same way you would; with scorn and disdain.I am thankful that I am not a Christian like you.

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What a cheap shot.

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Not at all, that comment was based upon reality.Being ignorant of contraception and sexual physiology (and also feeling that sex is "bad" or "dirty") is a major factor in the contraction of STD's, having unprotected sex, and in unwanted pregnancy.Many, many Christians raise their children to be ignorant of sexual physiology, contraception, and to think that sex is "bad" and "dirty".

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but I don't know what makes you think that Christians have something to do with this OP.

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Christians seem to be behind every effort to dictate what happens inside my uterus.

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I didn't know you were a woman. I thought you were a man.

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Why would you assume I was a man?

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If you think that its possible that a woman can be able to show no sign of extreme distress after being raped, I kid you not, you would have to be crazy or mentally ill to think such rubbish.

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Sure, it is possible. There are women who are not "shattered" by a rape, but are instead royally pissed off. If a woman is drugged and is then impregnated by someone, and she has no memory of the act and there were no injuries, she may very well not be in anywhere near as much distress as a clinically depressed woman who has consentual sex that results in a unwanted pregnancy.Women are individuals. they respond in all different ways to experiences.

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Have you ever interviewed any serial rapist victims? have you been a Victim of rape? What is your source? where did you get such rubbish?

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Are you saying that every single woman in the world has an identical emotional reaction to any given experience?

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Also I suggest nator that if you can't back up your theory on why I don't know what I'm talking about when it comes to the distress level between that of a rape victim and that of a non rape victim, you should also back off, that is until you finally get something worth backing up that theory of yours.

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Two women go to a party with a date.Both of them get drunk.Both of them are pressured into having sex they didn't want to have by their dates.One of the women feels completely violated, cries for days, and calls the rape crisis center. She falls into a depression that requires professional help.The other woman chalks it up to having a really bad night and becomes incredibly pissed off, lets the air out of her date's tires, and spreads the word around town that this guy is a total schmuck. She goes on about her business.Both become pregnant as a result of this night.Both have been raped as per the legal definition, but only one of them is "distressed".Are they both allowed to get abortions, according to you? If not, which one can and which one can't, and why?

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A simple papsmear, something a woman would get regardless after a miscarriage or an abortion, could yield clues.

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So, you're going to compel women to get manditory pelvic exams?

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If they are taught and learn from a professional on Victimology Behavior, then yes they will.

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I call bullshit.Prove it.And it would be great if you actually read what I wrote. Where in my above statement does it say anything about the woman being a "victim"?In jury trials where the psychological state of either the victim or the accused is material, it is commonplace for both the prosecution and the defense to call seperate psycholgists as experts. This is because for nearly every case, it is easy to find at least two experts who hold opposite views regarding the mental state of whomever they are evaluating.So, what was that you were saying about all experts will always return the same opinion?

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What is your definition of rape?

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Nonconsentual sex.

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She shouldn't be prevented to get the abortion, because she will be so distressed, she might have a miscarriage or worse, she might consider suicide to be 1 of her solutions.

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Right.Of course, and we could hospitalize her against her will to make sure she doesn't do any of these things. Not because we care about her, but becasue she might harm the pregnancy.You do realize that you have opened a whole world of ambiguity when you allow for abortion in the event of "mental distress", don't you?Exactly how "distressed" is distressed enough?

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YES! I'm simply saying that if a 14yr old girl thinks she's mature enough to have sex, she should be mature enough to suffer the damn consequences!

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But that is not an answer to the question I have asked.I didn't ask you what she "deserved" to have happen. I asked you about the reality of her actual physical and mental state.Just because a person "deserves" to suffer consequences (according to you) doesn't mean that they are psysically or mentally capable of doing so.

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if your mature enough to engage in sex, your mature enough to give birth. like I said before, if the carriers life is threatened but the fetus will die anyway, then it is ok for the carrier to get the abortion.

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Can you please show me where scientists say that ALL 14 year old girls are mature enough to carry a pregnancy to term and give birth to it?That is your claim. Please show me where scientists say this or retract.

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Maybe I should be more clear. SEX SHOULD ONLY BE PERFORMED BY 2 MATURE ADULTS.

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Where before you said, "is", you now say "should". That chnges the meaning of your statement significantly.Yes, in an ideal world, sex should only occur between two mature adults. Here in reality, that is not always the case. Why don't we deal with reality instead of wishing for a fantasy?

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with everything action, there is a consequence

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Is that the punishment Jesus would give?

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Yes thats right

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See, and LinearAq thinks that anti-abortion folks in general don't want to punish sluts. Here we have an example in this very thread of one who does, and he doesn't even try to hide it.

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I am actually compassionate about this subject, since alot of the time all abortion does is give people an excuse.

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This sentence doesn't make any sense. I have yet to see any compassion from you for girls and women, unless they are victims or mentally ill.Would Jesus want to punish sluts by forcing them to give birth?

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scorn? I wouldn't leave these girls all alone, I'd help them along the way, if I had to take care of them or anything I wouldn't mind, but 1 thing I wont help them do is get a abortion.

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Oh yeah? What are you doing today, right now, to help people in this situation? How many of them live in your house? How many medical bills have you paid for? How many unwanted children have you adopted?

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Many Christians teach their children not to have sex before marriage.

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...AND to be ignorant of sexual psysiology and contraception, thus making it more likely that the children, when they do start having sex (and they do, at the same rates as most ofther religious groups), they will not use protection, or not use it properly.

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and yes they are raised and told that sex is bad and filthy if they have sex before marriage. why are they taught this? because Christians believe in something called "sin".

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Yeah. And how is that working for you?In countries where a positive attitude towards sex prevails, and it isn't considered sinful to have sex outside of marriage, and the populace is knowledgeable about sex and contraception, and contraception is easy to get, there are very few STD's and unwanted pregnancies. The abortion rate is low.The highly-Christian, highly-religious US, by contrast, has some of the highest teen pregnancy, abortion and STD rates in the industrialized West.How is keeping kids ignorant of sexual physiology and contraception meant to reduce the need for abortion?Apparently, you people would rather pretend that your sons and daughters aren't going to have sex than do what is proven to be effective in preventing abortions.Ignorance is never good.

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to be royally pissed off is also a sign of distress! did you know that?!

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So angry women can also get abortions?

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well no way! ya think? woman individuals that like to experience different things and also respond differently to some their experiences.

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OK, you agree with me here, but you have been making absolute statements about how ALL women react to certain situations. You have claimed that ALL 14 year old girls are mature, when that is certainly not true. You have claimed that ALL women who are raped are at a maximum level of stress, when that is not even knowable and almost certainly not true.You maybe should think through your position a little more.

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The distressed 1 should be able to get a abortion, since she most likely have a miscarriage or commit suicide.

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OK, what if a woman is not quite depressed enough to be suicidal, but is still getting professional help for a moderate depression?

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The other seems to be fine, though she is very angry, but their seems to be no threat towards her own life. I wouldn't consider her to be a woman that would take her own life or have a miscarriage. but there is a chance she might damage the fetus anyway, she would probably be so angry she might drink alot or worse then that, she'll be a heavy smoker, so ya either way that baby=dead or probably could have really serious health issues when she gives birth to it. so yes both women should be able to get a abortion.

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So what about a woman who did consent to sex, comes up pregnant, and becomes really angry about it?What if there is a chance that she would damage the fetus by drinking or smoking a lot so the baby would have health issues after birth?Can this woman also have an abortion?Edited by nator, : No reason given.