9/11 thread

OK I'll answer this too.I don't agree with Canadian Steve. With Buz I think democracy can't happen under Islam. Anywhere it does work at all it is because Islam has been compromised, the Koran is not fully believed. Wherever true Islam prevails only Islam can rule. Democracy is condemned by purist Islamists as contrary to God.What should we do? Well, first of all the truth has to be told. And few want to listen. The true nature of Islam should be told loudly and clearly by everyone in the West. Appeasement is dangerous, lies are dangerous. It's almost too late, because they react to any criticism with murderous indignation and Europe is now so overrun by Muslims who hate European culture it would take more courage than most are likely to have. Rushdie dares to write a book that mentions something offensive to Islam and there's a fatwa out to kill him. This is how TRUE Islam operates.Tell the truth. Say it loud and clear at every opportunity. The media have to tell the truth, our leaders have to tell the truth. Bush made a huge mistake when he called Islam "a religion of peace." That was disastrous.There are moderate Muslims, but they are either intimidated by the purists (they are sometimes killed) or they half sympathize with their goals because they know they are being true to the Koran, which they revere. In any case, few of them are standing up to the terrorists and those who are are risking their lives and being distrusted and vilified just as others are who are trying to get the truth out about Islam. Ex-Muslims are doing their best, and facing the same kind of mistreatment.Yes, telling the truth will involve some tricky politics. But the alternative is to welcome our own destruction with open arms, or finally fight when it's almost too late and the war is ten times bloodier than it had to be.

That's less a tame, than a lame, response.And what's more... Their fundamentalists want to strip us of our democracy, our freedom, our rights, and substitute them with their religious fascism. Our fundamentalists want to strip them of their religious fascism and substitute it with freedom, democracy and rights, Now you know the rest of the difference.

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Now you know the difference between islamic and Christian fundamentalists.

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The only reason IMHO, that I am not declared a heretic and burned at the stake by fundamentalists in the United States is because of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. The first amendment, reviled by virtually all fundamentalists of any stripe, the very thing that prevents the teaching of creationism in public schools, is all that prevents Christian fundamentalists from behaving like Islamic fundamentalists IMHO since they both speak the same language of hate and intolerance.The real struggle for democracy is enlightenment vs. medevialism

faith, that's not at all inconsistent with what I was saying, although you're taking more of a tell the truth with respect to islam approach, compared to my tell the truth wioth respect to islamism - which necessarily entails the truth about the islamist element of the koran. Where we disagree, probably, is that you likely see that christianity must prevail over islam, where i belieev muslims can reform the faith through denial of its dark side. in fact, i believe that's the only solution, short of nuclear armageddon, because muslism sure as heck aren't going to surrender their faith.

Right on Steve. It's going to take being tough. Starting with calling a spade a spade.

I will agree that there is an element of christian fundamentalist who would suspend democracy and enforce their faith on the public at large, and constitute it legally. However, they are the minority. Bush is a fundamentalist, but leads the cry for liberal democracy, freedom and rights worldwide. Rice is and does likewise. In other words, they, no less than you, believe in the US constitution. In fact, they believe in it so much, they see it as the solution to the world's ills. That is, they would like the see the essence of that document apply to all oppressed peoples, so that they, too, can be free.

No, there is no mandate whatever for Christianity to triumph in this world. Christianity's Kingdom is not of this world. We are citizens of another country.But you are right I don't see any hope for Islam to reform. What you call its "dark side" is inherent in the religion. It's in their scriptures. They consider their sriptures to be given by God.Christianity reformed by getting back to its scriptures. The Inquisition was a product of false Christianity and those influences took a while to die out, but the pure Bible preaches against violence except in self defense, and not even in self defense when it comes to individuals.For Islam to get back to its scriptures would be for it to get MORE violent, not less, about subduing the rest of the world to Allah.I think telling the truth consistently and taking a determined defensive posture militarily -- not aggressive, but determinedly defensive -- simply not allowing Islam to make any inroads, forever if necessary, is all we can do.

yes, if Islam is true to its scriptures, or, at least, the dark side of the scriptures, there can only be violence and fascism. But Muslims can, and i believe eventually will, go into denial as to the dark side of the faith. That, however, will take democracy's influence.

An interesting choice of words.The third highest correlation between fundamentalism and identifiable behavioral characteristics according to the most recent research in the social sciences is racism. Second is religious intolerance. First is, of course, intolerance of homosexuality.If science teaching is destroyed then science will be destroyed then economy will be destroyed then the military will be destroyed. Who is supporting the Islamic fundamentalists in word, if not in deed?

He and his cronies may talk democracy, but they don't believe in the seperation of powers as outlined in the US Constitution.Many examples but would be veering Off-Topic. Suggest a thread if interested.

woo woo. That sure sounds self-importantly accusatory of something or other. This research I would like to see. Evidence please. And please give the definition of "fundamentalism" quite clearly too. What the fundamental tenets are is what determines the nature of fundamentalism, and there is an unfortunate habit some people have of lumping all fundamentalisms together, including those that contradict each other outright. Well, you have all the politically correct criteria down pat there. Let me guess, translation: "Religious intolerance" is defined as daring to think one's own beliefs are the only true beliefs, right?And "intolerance of homosexuality" means believing that homosexual acts are sin according to God, right?And you want to criminalize these two beliefs because they are "intolerant," right?Obviously it is your "research" that is intolerant and biased. I'm all in favor of science and this is off topic.

It was Christianity that established the first amendment. All Chrsitians object to is today's PC revisionist reversal of the meaning of the first amendment. Obviously you are one of the brainwashed.

Conservatives (this includes a lot more people than Bible Christians) are the only ones who DO believe in the Constitution. The liberals have reinterpreted it to deny its original intent.

Probably will open again tommorrow. Whining at the "Thread Reopen Requests" topic will not speed things.Think about: Why did OBL choose to attack the targets he did?Adminnemooseus

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I wish I could believe you are right. It was heartening to see the response to the elections, and I agree that democracy is inherently appealing to people, BUT you underestimate the power of the belief that Islam is given by God. It doesn't take many committed to the "dark side" of Islam as you like to put it, to intimidate and silence even a great majority of others who would rather have democracy.