God is good and evil

"How did God "make something". "You expect me to know exactly how an omnipotent, perfect entity goes about making something?"Did he way his hand?Then he changed his physical state "First off, whether or not He waved a hand neither of us can say. Secondly, you mention that would mean he changed his physical state, when I didn't say anything about handwaving in the first place."Did he think it into being? Then he changed his mental state."If an omnipotent being is all knowing how is that changing anything about his mental state? For all we know God doesn't have a 'mental state'."In order to perform any action, God has to change something about himself, even if that change isn't permanant. Given that change from absolute perfection is by definition imperfect, an absolutly perfect being wouldn't be able to act."You continue to put him under (realistic) human laws; how do you know what an omnipotent being is required to do? I don't claim to know much about God or how he works, and unless you have some inside info on his actions that I don't, I don't think you do either.

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

I won't pretend to know much about statistics of prayers; but here's what I've got.For one thing, keep in mind that some prayers could possibly be unanswered for a reason. Most cases of praying for someone to live during a risky operation would almost always, of course, be better off answered. Let's say after that coin toss(which is gambling anyway, but for the sake of arguement...) I go over to buy something across wherever place we're in from a vending machine with that quarter(again, for the sake of arguement despite obvious currency shortcomings) when a loose floorboard breaks under me, and I'm stuck down there unable to move my arms. Say you had a cell phone and I didn't, so you call for help and everyone manages to get me out somehow. Now, if I would've been the one standing around it'd be a pain to run all the way to the nearest place with people to get help.
So in some cases prayers are unanswered for a reason.I realize this scenario has plenty of awkward circumstances, but that's the best example I could come up with right now. Not bad for on-the-fly storytelling by Mr. Preach, huh?

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

That's precicely why I said unanswered prayers might be unanswered for a reason.

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

NOW you're starting to get it. We can't really know anything about Him at all, including whether or not He exists. It's all about faith not knowing, and through that faith you will eventually make a connection with Him, no matter what name you call Him by.

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

Thanks, Mike. And you're right about Jesus.P.S. no tag team in real wrestling, but I know what you mean.

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

But if we're talking about the reasons that God is or is not wholly good then it's a hypothetical positive that God exists for the sake of arguement, right?

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

I agree, I'm getting a little confused myself. That sounds good, I'll lay off your debate in this thread until it winds down in the other one; but I will continue to reply to compmage and anybody else.It might be a good idea to bring this to the Great Debate forum if it keeps going on, that way there wouldn't be so much crosstraffic.

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

I can't know anything about Him, but I can believe things about Him through faith.I SAID:
Born2Preach writes:
It's all about faith not knowing, and through that faith you will eventually make a connection with Him, no matter what name you call Him by.YOU REPLIED: I did agree that you can't know anything about God, but you can believe on faith. I did say that and you quoted me on it, apparently there was a misunderstanding. If you need me to clarify that some more I'd be happy to.

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

Can't get nothin' past you, can I junior? But, not only through faith but because there have been personal experiences that have confirmed a divine presence. Anyone will tell you that you believe in God through faith. I said that several times and you FINALLY get it.That's it, from now on I refer to you as Crampy.Anyway, I believe in one God but I am open-minded that this could, infact, be a polytheistic reality. The Christian scriptures describe a trinity as does the Hindu religion. I believe because what I've felt and experienced.In short, I'm not going to pretend I base my belief on scientific evidence, but there's more than one kind of evidence out there. Don't close your mind to just one.

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

By no means is that an example of that; despite what it seemed to you I did not actually say I was excluding anything. Through knowledge I know that any of those possiblities are... well, possible.But what I believe through faith is that there is a supernatural. Now you're assuming that individual believers are lying to themselves; you seem to think we're all a bunch of simple-minded fools. If you're talking about external reference, though, the VAST majority of the world would say there is a supernatural, anyway. You're extremely arrogant if you call my standards poor without knowing me. Just because you limit yourself to one kind doesn't mean there are not others; weren't you just accusing me of being closed-minded?I said in the post you replied to that I believe in Christianity because of what I've felt and experienced. You reply: If you touch a burning hot stove then you'll believe that a burning hot stove is, infact, hot because of what you felt and experienced.
Same thing with me.Please try to not be so condecending when you debate.(150th post! I sure have learned a lot...)

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

I agree that atre should be warned before I have to start picking on the poor kid.I noticed that you were replying to his posts with about the same tone as mine; I thought about bringing it up to you but I guess you beat me to it.I think both of us should make a note to teach little grasshopper to play nice...

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

Silly Crampy is at it again: Okay, maybe I'm just doing a poor job of explaining things but I'll try again: If you have faith you BELIEVE, you don't KNOW. Belief doesn't really have evidence but personal experience such as prayer etc. can be kind of a confirmation, or psuedo-evidence if you will. It's not scientific evidence, so by an atheist's standard there is no evidence. Light bantering, I mean no offense by it.
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I said:"In short, I'm not going to pretend I base my belief on scientific evidence, but there's more than one kind of evidence out there. Don't close your mind to just one."
---------------------------------------You reply: I asked you to not close your mind to just one kind of evidence; this is exactly what I was talking about. You seem to assume when I say 'evidence' I mean exclusively scientific evidence. What you consider 'bad evidence' is a different kind but not an inferior or superior kind. It's considered arrogance to immediately dismiss evolution due to faith(which I don't do, by the way); while I agree with this consideration I also feel it is arrogance to dismiss beliefs that are not scientific just because they're not scientific.[This message has been edited by Born2Preach, 05-01-2004]

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

Sorry it took so long to reply, I've been out awhile and for some reason I'm not receiving notices when people post to me. Faith by definition requires no evidence. Really, I don't believe that there is a such thing as that in its purest image. We all need proof to believe in anything; for some the proof need only to be the Bible etc., but we all need some form of proof. I'm more than willing to admit that my own perception of the Almighty is probably wrong, that's why I look for clues and try to better my understanding. With all due respect, no, there is not. Documented evidence is not the only kind, and personal evidence is not as fallible as you seem to think. I agree that relevant evidence will always either support or go against your position, but there is still more than one kind of evidence to do either of these. I agree that evidence can possibly against a position including my own; that's why it's evidence. All I'm arguing is that scientific/materialistic evidence is not the only evidence out there when dealing with the supernatural. I don't understand why people look to physical evidence to understand metaphysical things.Now, about the Santa Claus thing... The evidence that he exists would be the presents under the Christmas tree, but then when you get older you find yourself putting presents under the tree, so you can conclude either that there is no santa or you are infact santa. But you can't be santa because you don't live in the North Pole etc.But this is God we're talking about; an omnipotent being that set up the very laws of gravity and cell division that we're just now discovering. It's a slight step up from santa.This message has been edited by Born2Preach, 05-13-2004 06:06 PM

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

It's because I've already looked into it, only to be more convinced of a divine presence. So far I've yet to see any scientific or nonscientific proof that there is not something divine, and what personal proof that I have leans to the notion that he exists, so the scale tips in the way that He must exist. Not true. You can know something exists without knowing its exact motives. Can happen but doesn't as much as you seem to think. Yes, you can trust personal evidence as long as you evaluate it. People are not so prone to convince themselves; I know plenty of examples. Personal experience of whatever kind just to name one. I can provide examples if need be. I think I've said this before. With your soul/spirit/whatever you wanna call it. And no, it's not materialistic either so don't ask for evidence of it. Think of your soul as an antenna with really bad reception. How so? You still haven't given me ANY evidence against this. My evidence may not be scientific, it's mostly based upon my own spiritual senses, but some evidence versus no evidence is still a win in my book. If you have ANY evidence of ANY kind refuting divine existence then please present it.

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

Crampy, Crampy, Crampy... what I am gonna do with you? Let's hear some. I still don't see how this is meaningless. You sure about that, Crampy? The vast majority of the world believes in the existance of a God for starters. You may be hinting that people believe in different gods; that may or may not be true considering they could all be the same misconception of the same being. But most people DO believe in a Creator of some sort, contrary to your statement. We don't KNOW the spiritual sense exists. But remember all the things I said about separating knowledge from faith. You seem to have forgotten again. Maybe I just used a bad analogy. I didn't mean it picks up junk, I mean it doesn't always get the image in clearly. But there's no junk. Ha ha ha, silly Crampy! TVs can't see the future! I have, it's just not the kind you were asking for. Beggers can't be choosers. Disagree. Again, you seem to think the world's majority is atheist. It is not. Remember, no matter how many times you repeat that to yourself, it won't come true. You've said the first part before and I answered it so I won't do it again here. I said from the beginning I don't have any scientific evidence. This is basically what you did:Mr. Preach: I don't have any scientific evidenceCrampy: You're starting to seem like you don't have any scientific evidence.IN SUMMARY:You say personal proof doesn't count. I say it does. Standoff/Stalemate.You say majority of the world doesn't believe in the God you seem to think I believe in. The majority of the world is theistic, so that claim is false. If you want to rephrase it as "The majority of the world believes differently than you do about God" then you have something to work with.You say I don't have any scientific evidence. You're right, but that's what I've been saying from the beginning.

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.