Women and the Fundamentalist View of Marriage

Buz, I have asked you to address my point, illustrated by your own example of a man begging for tool money from his wife, that a marriage that has a leader/follower structure (as opposed to a partnereship) inevitably leads to a parent/child type relationship.I have repeatedly asked you to address it, and since the last (third) request, another 100 posts have gone by without this happening.I do understand that you were out of town on business last week, but it is quite clear by now that you now are simply refusing to admit that which you already believe.You DO believe that when the wife is the leader of the marriage, the husband can be reduced to behaving like a begging child.You said so yourself, for all to see.This logically means that you DO understand that the opposite must be true; that wives can also be reduced to behaving like a child if the husband is the leader of the marriage.I have worked in retail for the last 10 years, and just yesterday I saw a woman pick up an item off of a shelf and look at it wistfully. She then turned to me and said, "He won't let me get this." She was referring to her husband, of course, and the item in question was under $20, and was something they both could have enjoyed. He, of course, was buying other items at the cash register at the time.Why is this scenario OK, but when we switch the genders it becomes unacceptable?I will cut and paste this post to the Proposed New Topics, so we can begin another thread.I am sure you want to show that you are not a wimpy, childlike male who doesn't avoid and run away from a debate.

Yep, Faith and Belief.How about, "women and the fundamentalist view of marriage"?

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Of course, what is noticeable, is that you miss the parts of the bible that promote equality. Jesus talked to and treated women equally, which matters a lot to a christian.

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Oh, I certainly do believe that Jesus' teachings are very progressive, radically liberal and feminist for his time. I'm not being sarcastic, btw.However, remember that it's buzsaw and others like him who do not think the bible or Jesus promote equality between the genders.They believe that the bible says that men are superior to women, and that the most successful kind of marriage is one that has a male head and a subservient female.My argument is not with you at all.

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Ha ha, Buz wears leather tights.

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I'm no Michelle Pfeiffer, but I do have a pair of red suede jeans that fit quite well.

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Men or women are only reduced to behaving as children when they buck authority and are immature and arrogant. Children usually think only of themselves. Just because the man is the final authority in marriage should not cause the wife to act selfishly or irresponsibly. A humble woman can have great dignity in marriage under the authority of her husband. In my own observations it is the bitchy nagging bossy wife and the hen-pecked man who have lost all dignity and are childish.

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Let's change this around a bit and see how you like it...Just because the woman is the final authority in marriage should not cause the husband to act selfishly or irresponsibly. A humble man can have great dignity in marriage under the authority of his wife. In my own observations it is the abusive, domineering, patronizing husband and the beaten-down womanwho have lost all dignity and are childish.Here's another way to look at it...Just because the white man is the final authority in slavery should not cause the Negroto act selfishly or irresponsibly. A humble Negro can have great dignity in slavery under the authority of his or her master. In my own observations it is the uppity, presuptuous, educated Negro and the undignified, deferential master who have lost all dignity and are childish.This message has been edited by schrafinator, 06-01-2004 08:39 PM

Thought I'd give this a little bump for hangdawg...

Buzsaw, do you believe that having a leader/follower type marriage leads to the "follower" being reduced to engaging in childlike behavior, such as begging for money?

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Genesis 3:16 "To the woman he (God) said, I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; in sorrow you shall bring forth children; and your desire shall be to your husband, and he shall rule over you."

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You quote the above to contradict Pecos' claim that women and men are equal.You are actively promoting the idea that men should RULE OVER WOMEN....and thus, you support the oppression of women, buz.

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Why would you even attempt to figure out what was going on with that woman in the store and her husband. There is a life long series of issues there, and you could never know the real truth, or what really makes those people happy.
Maybe she was perfectly happy doing what she was doing.

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I've worked in retail sales for 10 years in a company that is nationally known for exceptional service, and I'm very good at it. One of the things that makes someone good at retail sales is their ability to read the non-verbal body language of people very well.In my professional opinion, she didn't appear happy to me.She appeared quite disappointed.

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I believe the bible teaches us that it is a voluntary submission of the wife to the authority of the husband.

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...except that it doesn't really work out to be voluntary.If a woman is taught to believe that the way to be a good Christian and go to heaven is to submit, then she really has no choice unless she wants to reject her sect's interpretation and receieve eternal punishment.That sounds like no choice to me.

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I don’t know of any verse that says a husband should bring his wife into submission if she does not voluntarily submit.

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We automatically think that submission of the wife to the husband somehow makes the wife less than her husband. I disagree. I think rather it is a matter of position than worthiness. When I was in the Army I had friends who out ranked me, and at work I was under their authority, but I would not say there were superior to me.

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However, you were not in an intimate, lifelong, God-sanctioned love relationship with your Army friends.You were in an employment situation, and I believe that any person, given the talent and drive, can be promoted to the very highest level in the armed services, correct?A Christian wife, no matter her talents, abilities, training, or nature, is always lower in rank than her husband, if she wants to be a "good" Christian woman.She never, ever has the option to raise her status to equal.The truth is, a man who feels like he has the right to overrule the will of his wife is keeping her in a childlike role, and not treating her as a full adult.It is also true that any woman who submits herself to anyone's authority in a relationship is abdicating any chance to be respected as a full adult in that relationship.An adult, healthy relationship is a partership between equals.Tell me, do you think that we should follow what the Bible directs regarding how to treat disobedient children (stoning), or do you think that perhaps some of the family advice, including women submitting to men, might be outmoded and no longer desireable?

What?Tell me, do you also consider that Buzsaw's analysis of his male customer in his retail service scenario is likely to be incorrect?Buzsaw claims that his male customer was reduced to "begging like a child" to his wife for tool money because this male customer had let his wife becoe the leader in their marriage.

Buzsaw, do you believe that having a leader/follower type marriage leads to the "follower" being reduced to engaging in childlike behavior, such as begging for money?Please answer.Tally of times asked: 4

You quote the above to contradict Pecos' claim that women and men are equal.You are actively promoting the idea that men should RULE OVER WOMEN....and thus, you support the oppression of women, buz.Please admit that you support the oppression of women, or explain how I am wrong about your motivations for posting this Genesis verse.Tally of times asked: 2

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No, I am claiming that his analises doesn't mean doodely in the over all picture of how their marriage really is.

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I would tend to agree, but I was just providing a counter example to his.

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I beg my wife for tool money, and she gives it to me, and we are both happy. Even if she says no, I am still happy. We give each other that respect.

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According to buzsaw, you don't have a correct Christian marriage because you allow your wife to lead you.

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It's been a way of life in human cultures since recorded history.

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Do you mean the domination of women by men has been a way of life in human cultures since recorded history?Actually, that's not true across the board.Several Native American cultures, primarily Iroquois, are matriarchal.Southern India had several matriarchal districts in the past, and a small district is still as such today.There are others.