Inerrant Bible?

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Originally posted by Philip:
1) There are innumerable other sources of Christ's death, burial and resurrection in religions and in nature (already discussed under ID necessarily the Christian one).

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Uhh.... where? None of the known Roman records have anything to say about it, for example. And, in nature? Do we have fossils? What? [QUOTE] 2) I’m not sure what semantics are meant here. A source cannot always speak, true. But sources per se seem to confirm themselves, often scientifically. A rock ‘presents’ as a rock, etc. Philip as Philip, etc.
[/B][/QUOTE]Yes, and a book 'presents' as a book-- the Bible included. That's it. The end. But this doesn't have anything to do with it being a correct account of anything at all. The Hitchhiker's Guide may as well be your source. It'd make things a lot more fun.John------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com

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Originally posted by Philip:
--A ‘cold’ yet ‘hellish’ outer darkness is seen to inundate >99% of universe. Temperatures are near absolute zero. No life-forms are detectable therein.

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Not detected does not mean not existent. That's like my claiming there are no lions 'cause i can't see them from my house.

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--Science and mathematics (to a great extent) appear useless in such a void.

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Really? Maybe you should inform all the scientists and mathematicians.

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B) The phenomenon light is observed/detected — electromagnetic radiation.
--‘Brightness’ and ‘Warmth’ is seen and felt here amidst the great ‘darkness’ of space.
--Sophisticated science with mathematically measurable parameters, are now detectable, including, ‘special relativistic phenomenon’ (‘E=MC2’).

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And?

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1. Lower skies manifest violent meteorological instability.

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I repeat. And?

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Universal expanse and expansion detectable as orderly:

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Please please please make an argument.

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1. Ominous appearing ‘oceans of fire’ detectable below the earth’s strata and ‘oceans of water above’.
--‘Volcanic upheavals’, earthquakes, etc.
--Floods, tidal waves, etc.

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Wow! Now that is an imagination.

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2. Innumerable vegetations/fruits decay:
--Rotting, decaying, burning, etc.

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Gee. Stuff dies. That's proof.

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--Many grains threaten extinction if neglected by human farming.

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I am currently discussing this with someone else. Take a look.
http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=page&f=7&t=27&p=20

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1. Powerful land boundaries/masses

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You seem to be arguing that the planet was designed for us because we can exist on it and make use of it. That is backwards. We can survive on the planet cause that's the environment we've got. If we couldn't survive here we wouldn't be having this discussion.

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A) Innumerable battered moons and other celestial orbs that appear arbitrary and wasted.
--An infinite number of celestial orbs appear damaged, ‘aborted’, useless, pointless, strung out without any apparent purpose, etc.
--Star systems appear to be dying — ‘red dwarfs’, etc.
--An infinitude of planets appear unfavorable to sustain life.

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This supports ID?

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B) Celestial luminaries observed for (diurnal) time-clocks and beneficial cyclic seasonal effects, with other potential appearing uses.
--Peculiar harmonies, symmetries, and proportions are observed in numerous stellar systems. ‘Dish’-like orbital symmetry seen in our lunar rotation and solar system, and most galaxies.
--Stars have a relatively long-appearing life cycle.
--Trans-earth habitation appears remotely promising, at least pending extensive supernatural and/or scientific intervention.

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This is just silly. God designed the universe so that we can have clocks? Please.Ok. I can't take any more of this. Lets skip down some shall we?

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--dogs fight cats, snakes ‘charm’ victims, numerous predators instigate ‘terror’.
--Sickness, crying, travailing and groaning amidst all diverse life-forms and man.
--Pedophiliacs, murderers, terrorists
--Wars: Nation against nation, etc.
--Sickness and aging goes on without ceasing. Metastasis and cancer abounds.
--Crying and groaning in all upper life forms.
--Divorce, adultery, fornication, immorality, pornography --> ‘nuclear family’ decay.
--Unrestrained ‘free wills’ appear everywhere to conflict with each other.

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This supports ID? That is one scary intelligence.

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B.) Songs of ‘deliverance’ heard among humans.

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Are you sure this isn't due to the actions of Allah, Buddha, Zeus, Breed, Shiva, Baron Samedi, or aliens?

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The personality behind such an intelligent design (ID) here would commiserate with all ‘sin-cursed’ observations and ‘redemptive’ ones. Such a personality is explicitly apparent in the Christ-Creator model, a Christ who himself became completely ‘sin-cursed’ but ‘risen from the dead’, redeeming the creation thereby. The natural marks of such redeeming events appear everywhere as expected under the ‘evangelical’-creationist hypothesis.

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...more consistent with the personality of a raging psychopath.... [QUOTE]

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--Are not books are analogous to telescopes:

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uhhh..... no.

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they enable you to focus upon specific events, physical and/or metaphysical.

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Those specific events being the opinions in the minds of the authors and nothing more. It has nothing to do with the world outside that mind, except where th author points to reproducible observation.

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The Bible addresses this metaphysical event, apriori.

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Anton LaVey's Satanic Bible addresses this metaphysical event, but that doesn't mean he's right. You can point to hundreds of book which address ethic and morality, but I don't see what that has to do with suggesting ID.------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com

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Originally posted by Philip:
John, did you miss the whole point of inclusion of my data-observations? They merely pointed out the nature of the ID, not proving the ID itself. They were in response to Shraf’s objections that there were, essentially no empirical-observations to support the NATURE of an ID.

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No, actually I didn't miss your point. Its just that whether or not this points to intelligent design or not is entirely subjective. Even calling this the "nature" of design doesn't help. You just end up with a description of observation and no theory at all-- photo no depth. Adding to that the idea of design is subjective, and kinda circular too. Question begging, that sort of thing.

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ID is proved/suggested in other threads (i.e., by ‘cause-effect’ logic, ICs, delicate interdependent bio-/cosmic- complexities, kantian logic, parsimony-logic, etc.)

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There is stuff we can see and stuff we kant see. The stuff we kant see is the real deal but sadly, we kant ever ever ever see it or know anything about it. Don't get me started on Kant.And I'm not buying the parsimony logic bit. It is not the simpler solution to postulate an entity just outside the limits of our understanding. At best, you just buy a little time.

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TEST RESULTS: Comparisons of (A) ‘SIN-CURSED’ observations and (B) ‘REDEMPTION’ observations:

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You are already begging the question. You could as easily start off with 'drunken-god'/'sober-god' observations. Or Shiva/Vishnu. Or .... get it?

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Many doubtless, may suggest it supports the ‘theistic’ ‘evolutional’ model of the creation as well. Many will reject the hypothesis outright.

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I don't think this evidence necessarily supports anything. It's much too subjective. The problem with all your evidence is that you have to want to see ID to see it. It may be necessary to justify your beliefs but it isn't necessary for anything else.------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com