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Member (Idle past 5936 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Is there a border dividing life from non-life? | |||||||||||||||||||
Brad McFall Member (Idle past 5061 days) Posts: 3428 From: Ithaca,NY, USA Joined: |
I have always been confused over the notion of "emergence" ( I heard it used in the classroom at Cornell but it did not seem to me to signify anything real) because I have never seen in that literature an exhaustive discussion of (when or if the whole can be greater than the sum of its parts) vs (the notions where the whole is NEVER greater than a sum (no matter which) of the parts). It is clear to mathmaticians of set theory that *transitively* the w, infinite (next after all finites), IS LARGER than the sum of all finite numbers but translating this into geometry seems to have been the reason it was not applied to thoughts about emergence.
Instead, I tend to think that algebra is here and emergence doesn't really exist, even though the cognitions you and others had associated with it in this thread did and does.
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Brad McFall Member (Idle past 5061 days) Posts: 3428 From: Ithaca,NY, USA Joined: |
I think it has to do with a question as to ?if? infinIte magnitudes can have RATIOS, like finite ones, but it is not quite time for me, to pipe up. I think we would all be "conscious" on EVC, if we were able to determine this.
This message has been edited by Brad McFall, 08-28-2004 10:24 AM
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Brad McFall Member (Idle past 5061 days) Posts: 3428 From: Ithaca,NY, USA Joined: |
quote:>There may be a commutative sum whichthat ISNOT distributive PER >REVOLUTION(of/on/if Earth) but transient rotationally dividing >chemical classes (as if I already knew that calculation of any force >that would "flip" a Galton PolyGON. quote:>maybe ONLY because I read F.Jacob using the term "inaccessible >cardinal" AND knowing that this is a technical term in set theory? quote:>I would suspect if this plane represented some subset of RNA codes >within Lerner's notion of "fluid genetic composition" PER TWO >DESCRIPTIONS OF PHENOTYPES (ie two different taxonomic >OBJECTIVITIES) then this complex could be discussed unless the >different views of you and me are ONLY about the NERVOUS SYSTEM in >which case the topology would be required and not just a plane >geometrically. quote:>I admit that a plainmeter might give a visual as to the outlier or >projection but if the repulsions =/= attractions provided one is >able to discuss action at a distance in terms of recombination data >it is unclear to me if this example (I would need to "turn on" my >mathematical bent (which I will do for any follow up) will do the >work of turining any Galtonian curve via some sum of Gaussian errors >into the what symmetrically might be skewed in the distribution FROM >DNA TO PROTEINS and NOT the other way around macrothermodynamically >per priciple of substance stability. THIS IS NEEDED in theoretically >biology UNLIKE apriori probabilites in Physics becuase we only HAVE >ONE physical description of the world but TWO formed ones of the >shapes that classificatory biology slots/categorizes/pigeonholes etc >etc etc. quote:http://EvC Forum: Evolution vs.PE -->EvC Forum: Evolution vs.PE quote:>This might be an ecological problem of guild behaviors summed >genetically. I dont know quote:>I dont think that "farming lichens" is emergent at all. quote:>density dependence is a RESULT population thinking but the ability >to write the results will depend on the sample to some extent. It >may even depend on the electrons in the ant itself. quote:>YEs but now I would need to discuss the Galvanni-Volta, Faraday, >Gladyshev's thermostat and many things no one seems to have but in >one ear and out the ear of the other- ha! quote:>Thats my first go on holism versus organaciism. You'll have to give me a break, excuse the mess and make a feel @the >chance to think about it some-more. quote:>back to repulsions vs attractions and supramolecularity!! see also intereadthreadalia by me
If I can show that stasis IS NOT data on the reference of Mathcette about the static atomism of a materialistic-mechanism dialectic then absolutely. That would be big news. But even if I can not show this there is still some "wiggle" room in my mind to go in a particular direction that I still remand to Matchette's notion of changing divergences from a rock to a plant to an animal to a human. THIS LAST, is not the "chain of being" affilated to Kant but just what non-Buffonian mould it was is hard for me to project the plane that can rotated in. THIS PARTICULAR INSigHT WHICH i wrote as thesis to will provine (who said that the text was "random" thus proving my point) under college scholar COntract at cU attempt to futher the lexicology BUT NOT THE grammer of it. I was suitably impressed with Derrida's reading of Husserl to hold off on NOT refering to the grammer as well. I did not, nonetheless.
To answer your question and not my interest or motivation rather than is then if the claims of Gould to "stasis" is an artifact of the late appearence of the philosophy of biology as a discipline. (???) You see, the proper response is quite expansive still. A sound bite like "DNA is a torision lessing system" will not even remotely work here even if we were using any and all current technology to communicate with. I can also discuss Gould's attempt to bring the Python to the Plane of an Insect body. It is still a matter of the tail and not the head.
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Brad McFall Member (Idle past 5061 days) Posts: 3428 From: Ithaca,NY, USA Joined: |
It DOES TOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I have maintained here on EVC, but perhaps you will be the first to displace this sustained attention, that while you might have ANY stat molecular distribution your good big statistical mechanical heart desires but this will not guarenttee in biology that you have a an electron DISTRIBUTION. If you comment on the following substantitively you can have any letter I wrote as I do not require the last word. Campbell, Foundations of Science, Chance and Probability, The Theory of Chance footnote page 202 by Dover publishing... "There will, of course, be a very great change if we are considering the positions of the individual molecules, regarded as seperately identifiable. If we suppose that the molecules are not identifiable, so that all distributions are the same in which the same number of molecules is present in the same volume, then there is no change in the distribution with time. But this consideration is not relevant to our present purpose. When we say that the distribution of the molecules is dictated by chance we are thinking of the molecules as identifiable. The possiblilty of regarding certain large collections as identical although the elemetns of which they are composed are different gives rise to the study of statistics. There is a close connection between statistics and probability, but the use of statistics may be quite independent of the conceptions of chance which we are examining now." Now, I AM examining the unisexual salamanders. Simply try to think that the tiger salamander could not climb up on a glacier while those salamanders that did that in the past ended up reproducing ABOVE rocks their ancestors could only look up to. A round ringing rock my friend. If you are below it I hope you evolve. Because cellular automata are about fungi not lichens which you or I could engineer in some future ecosystem and besides I DID THINK of something substative in Wolfram's classifications of automata but as his own company distanced himself from it I will only now write about that under the issue of Why Weyl never got biology just left. Wolfram's "rules" and thus any cellular automata could go either way but the salamanders will always be the last play in the Bills football game (see the geographic hatching change from n-s to e-w) in the last twenty years of herpetology if you are still missing some of it) no matter how many time Gibbs had the last word. You thought you said,
quote:But it IS to my own credit, sorry about padding my wallet, that I AM ABLE (within the descriptive plethora of biological discourse TO NOT EXPLICTLY USE the countably infinite (though in private notes I have used it many a time and you can easily find posts on this web site where I indeed have or had tried to at least)(I do KNOW what you are asking but there IS NO ONE here (except you perhaps) who has had the ability to discuss fundamental series with me to Plank IN BIOLOGY so I have found this lexic rather than grammetical way of saying the same cognition without the idea always in iteself (as if %that% were possible- as you know it is not)). At the time I WAS USING METAPHYSICS not phenomenological thermodynamics to do my criticism with, and so where I introduced some$ idea of commutativity, associativity, distributivity it did matter because the responders here were not simply addressing the metaphysics. The post before Georgi Gladyshev introduced me, again, as I had in a prior time tried to get posters here interested in macro thermo by itself, I HAD indeed opened up this issue of RNA, and I can find it in with the search enginge if it matters which way the dripping water flows but I guess you simply have a materialistic bent that is the majority here but not one I arouse nor try to awake.But what I heard was that you wanted to know about how I place the name "M. Lerner" in all of it. I am sorry. I did rush through it but because I did not have the reference in front of me I made that a short-cut. Lerner was a geneticist of polutry. I will describe the relevance AGAIN if you wish but if all you are interested in is the USE of the countably infinite in cellular automata or the policy TO NOT USE IT then you will have to enagage me on a metaphysical level I have tried to not use here as this did not generate the response I had hoped for. My positive thought in your direction has to do with the realtion of the classes of cellualar automata INTO the QUADROUPLE desciptors of biologists but this is not something I can always keep clear in my brain so I dont try to write it. Gladyshev used "descriptions" of macrokinetics and phenomelogical recursions of macrothermodynamics for the same subspecific differentiation that a nesting automata might nich construct genetically IF there were also TWO phenotypes misdescibed as one but if they were still unified in any grammetical way the type four automata might STILL find the same PROGRAM but this will not occurr in any life case so unless the two pheynotypes ARE properly doubly described the symmetra on one dimmension (through a code THAT DOES BEAR in RNA) could still find the outlier in the distribution even if I was wrong nondescriptively about the electron placements. If people hear here learned the simpler things we could perhaps find that Hume's idea of idea was already here but then we might have moved off topic. my last substantive update was
quote:@ http://EvC Forum: GP Gladyshev's paper (s)or mine? -->EvC Forum: GP Gladyshev's paper (s)or mine? Note- unlike this previously- I DID NOT SAY YOU in particular ARE DENYING Euclid's Fifth! Who knows? Are you?? This message has been edited by Brad McFall, 09-13-2004 04:23 PM
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Brad McFall Member (Idle past 5061 days) Posts: 3428 From: Ithaca,NY, USA Joined: |
Ned said,
Of course it is based on the simpler behavior of the component parts. That's pretty much my understanding of what emergent means.
I, BSM, Said;I have always been confused over the notion of "emergence" ( I heard it used in the classroom at Cornell but it did not seem to me to signify anything real) because I have never seen in that literature an exhaustive discussion of (when or if the whole can be greater than the sum of its parts) vs (the notions where the whole is NEVER greater than a sum (no matter which) of the parts). It is clear to mathmaticians of set theory that *transitively* the w, infinite (next after all finites), IS LARGER than the sum of all finite numbers but translating this into geometry seems to have been the reason it was not applied to thoughts about emergence. &YOU Carton said:Instead, I tend to think that algebra is here and emergence doesn't really exist, even though the cognitions you and others had associated with it in this thread did and does. quote: etc. . There can be NO confusions here. I am not going to lose any more sleep over this. It was not a "stream". THAT% was consciousness expressing (itself) etc. Where is "here"? Complexity is not a place. EvC is not a position. I could have answered you with a one-liner about why I, BSM, would or would not etc but I tried. One has to have the energy divided. I do not know if the reason I havent done this division is because I have not used Cantorian inherences or if it is specific to Helmhotlz's inability to comprehend Faraday. I dont think that it would be impossible to do stat mech on the electrons if that was answered. Your point was about emergence which is OVERDETERMINED in biology not about the correlation of two distributions. If I was mistaken seehttp://listserv.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind0102&L=TA... and tell me if you are interested in discussing virials in any sense of statistical mechanics as I have, but I dont think I posted much on it, thought about Crookes tubes and melanin distribution in terms of ISOTHERMALS (but as such are in the domain of macrothermodynamics) when it comes to organismal patterns but since I read about phenomeonological macrothermodyanics I am able to THINK in a less descriptive mode and more physical median. You may be "talking" to ELIZA lies but I am not. The leap is not disconcerting if you insist on ants. Simlpy give me some DATA on ants or Gould'sbatsonian IDants etc and relate it to Monod's Chance and Necessity and the whole issue of any kind of accessible or not cardinal "goes away". I am not afraid to TAKE this step but I hate to go alone. If you cant discuss salamanders as per the below than I cant discuss ants if you dont tell me just off if it is the nervous system silly or just stupidty that prevented(s?) from communicating?? One needs the chemicals. I was going to talk on frogs but just when I was about to you asked about consciousness and emergence. Oh well- we have to life with life in internet time I guess. Show me what you think the wholes and what the parts are in this salamander and sex information. and we will be able to specify if it was algebra or geometry that got between us. USE Gould:SOET(a common abreviation for his last large volume on theconceptual restructuring of evolutionary theory)p648:"Second, some well-documented patterns in nature seem hard to explain without a strong component of interdemic selection. Female-biased sex ratios, as discussed by Wilson and Sober (1994, pp. 640-641), provide the classic example because two adjacent levels make opposite and easily tested predictions: conventional organismic selection should favor a 1:1 ratio by Fisher's famous argument (1930); while interdemic selection should promote strongly female-biased ratios to enhance the productivity of groups. Williams (1966) accepted this framework, which he proposed as a kind of acid test for the existence of group selection. He allowed the female-biased ratios would point to group selection, but denied that any had, in fact, been documented, thus validating empirically the theoretical arguments he had developed for the impotence of group selection. Williams concluded (1966, p 151):"Close conformity with the theory is certainly the rule, and there is no convincing evidence that sex ratios every behave as a biotic adaptation." But empirical examples of female-biased ratios were soon discovered a plenty..."TO PARSE "Male A jeffersonianum can chemically discriminate between female conspecifics and female JJL (Dawley and Dawley 1986) and are more likley to court and produce relatively large numbers of spermatophores when experimentally paired with conspecifics than with JJL(Uzzell and Goldblatt 1967). This finding suggests that female JJL sometimes use excess spermatophores that are deposited as males of other Ambystoma species mate with conspecifics. Female JJL lay about 140-200 eggs, and the mode of egg deposition and egg mass size resemble those of A.jeffersonianum (Uzzell 1964a)." Page 125 In Salamanders of the United States and Canada by James Petranka 1998. It is not emergence but simply a broad knowledge from where in I speak with or without Euclid. I like Pascal though. You see::: this whole issue that I DID NOT FIND at Cornell, IS between the names Washington-Jefferson without Clinton. Oh well, merged again! I had required for MY OWN discussion as READ on EVC that the points be dual. You were free to NOT write so. So it made it difficult and continues to do so for me to relate EXACTLY what I wrote to what you did. You see??? now? Are you sure we are talking at about emergence of addition and NOT multiplication??????? How can you be so certain that people dont just accept the notion in an overdetermined e-m(ergant) state because they view probabilistic multipliers as wrongly concieved additions+? Can you exclude NED's Quote from this possiblity from which I HAD responded. I did not. Is is not that the girl salamanders USE the sperm because there are MORE females than because sperm donation is in some situations in excess? Stop me before I leap the step. A discussion of Virials and your notions in Kinetic theory of gasses might adapt EVC's discussion WITHOUT the countable infinite but I can not be certain without some more information from you. I still would NOT call this "emergent" but merely 'growing'. I pray you dont read this as candy. Plese read thishttp://dbhs.wvusd.k12.ca.us/...m-History/Helmholtz-1881.html first. Secondly, you had thought;quote: but I can not be certain given the above mentioned isothermal (on an edge of a flow I margnialized in my own copy of the Dover edition on the Kinetic Theory of Gases) whether SPECIFICALLY it is a convex or a concave polygon that would be integral to our conversation. For if inherences were required in the regulatory extension of process rates finished and summed then I dont see how Gould's stepped time speciations could NOT be used to outline the ecology OR behavior involved in any distribution contained. Now if I was certain that this was behavior or ecology or I KNEW that point sets DID NOT apply then I could continue to agree with you but as I only was motivated to think on this from electron distributions I can not be sure when it came to any action at a distance or virial or replusionsandatractions(any ion) that we had NOT got better than Bateson's question to Hardy as to PATTERN that this did relate. You were correct about the pattern. The issue is if there is NOT MORE spatial heterogenity than current temporal understanding but my sense it self is not determined on this. I could just accept a math probablisitc materialist attitude and try to reason thus but I dont have that process completed as yet. I would have had to relate across about 100 pages of Gouldtext from Bateson to Weismann and as I said this WOULD relate to RNA. Take the latest out of Cornell for instance. The Cornell Chronicle reported that biologists had found disease might be treated epigentically (September 9, 2004) with the title "Weill CU research shows how activity of a gene is repressed 'epigentically'"but in the patter you correctly identified this could simply be preformed supramolecularly (ie self-assemblied). Now imagine $all$ these mistakes in the 100 pages of Gould and I see easily how hard it is to read biological research in English. It is maddening indeed. I had had the thought that was approved in this research when visiting colleges as a high school student and got in at a Harvard lecture by Gilbert and so I, BSM, find that what I thought decades ago was a good one but in the mean time because of anti-creationist sentiments NOT because I thought correctly I was PREVENTED from using this thought in a carrer. That is why I post on EVC to bring to people's attentions the errors in many researches so that what happened to me in US wont happen again. I was trying to find out the "behavior" but if one assumes Wolfram's "notion" of the word then you need not heed my posting in this thread. I simply thought so because I doubt the RATIO can be bettered without the countably infinite and this might be shown by SEM data from snake scales as to thermoregulation and light refraction between SPECIES of snakes. I dont know. There are just not any people here this interested in following up my ideas, so instead you see every one getting up on whether or not Meyer was ethical or not. Again I can not avoid the thought that this IS NOT due to creation vs evolution as both sides have had a say on EVC but instead due to sequesterd and privledged research programs that prevent common communication of just what was so hard for you to conclude about a sum of material subcomponents. Obviously if a measure were afforded by some agency then it would not be necessary to use a test by proportion. What is very cutting edge is that macrotheromdyanmic inequalities provide the discontinuity within the body that Bateson might have thought but Gould simply continuously rather cited anti-creationist sentiments about where the analogy to US poltics is not remiss as the proportionate stratifed poll is a non-biological exemplar of the same FORM of the data. It seems that the only reason for this state was the insistance that process rates of materials IS ALL that is NEW in the research. Clearly US biologists NEED to use Continental Approaches if they are have their schools locally do better. Further more I have already indicated in good position on EVC the dubious use of the word BLOCK which reappears here inlitt at a crucial point.NCBI "This directly contradicts the traditional assumption that the allochthonous genomes of the unisexuals be inherited en bloc during hybridogenetic meiosis" The contradiction is in the words not in your reasoning. Notice "it contradicts", AN ASSUMPTION, not a fact and this gets science, with all the money, still no where...What the research paid for was avoiding use of the simple word bloc or block for allochthonous"". I hope this helps. Since it is the TEMPORAL difference the words in the work did not provide access to the data without doing some kind of interpretation. Science should be more transparent. I dont think creationism is to blame for this even if you failed to parse the same as I did. I, in my mind maintain this difference (mathematically) if I notice different mathematicians use of the words "cardinal" and "ordinal" but this is wholy subjective unless the countably infinte DID apply to the ecology of this duration no matter the behavior. I might be paid to find this out but the problem lies not with me but with others realizing that there is a solution. As for how this format might relate to only a denumerable sum equally for ants and salamanders, that, at least, I had not given thought to - at all. This message has been edited by Brad McFall, 09-15-2004 10:43 AM
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