The Divine Proportion: Does It Have a Materialistic Explaination?

Hey, I was wondering if anybody here knows of any naturalistic theorioes as to why the number Phi, also known as the Divine Proportion or the Golden Section, appears so freakishly often in nature. If there's no possible materialistic explaination for it......and I've never heard or thought of any.......then wouldn't it be irrefutable proof of a creator?

Gotcha, I'll see what I can do.

Hey, I was wondering if anybody here knows of any naturalistic theorioes as to why the number Phi, also known as the Divine Proportion or the Golden Section, appears so freakishly often in nature. There are millions upon millions of ways you can derive Phi from the proportions of nature (hence the name "Divine Proportion). For instance, a nautalis sea shell is in spirals. The circumference of one ring to another = 1.618. Sunflower seeds circumference divided by the one below it = 1.618. The circumference of a pine cone ring divided by the one above it = phi. The circumference of the rings on a tree divided by the one before it = 1.618. Your head to your toes divided by your navel to your toes. Your hip to toes divided by your knee to your toes = 1.618. Your shoulder to your finger tips, divided by your elbow to your fingertips = 1.618. Those are just a few examples look it up online for more. BUT the one I find the most interesting is this. In any Honey bee colony in the world, ANY ONE, The number of female bees divided by the number of male bees = 1.618If there's no possible materialistic explaination for it......and I've never heard or thought of any.......then wouldn't it be irrefutable proof of a creator?This message has been edited by JasonChin, 10-08-2004 08:12 AM

How's that?BTW, I was aware of that past thread on Phi, but the thread was created as a statement and not really a question and, frankly, it wasn't even a well-stated statement. Therefore, people who didn't believe it just kind of made fun of it. I want this thread to be dedicated to people attempting to make a REAL argument against it.

It's funny that there's enough numbers in the universe that, if you look hard enough, you'll "find" the number that you're looking for, over and over again. Like, 42, or the Law of Fives:>>But Phi appears far more often than these numbers........and always in the same context, I.E. proportions.

Yeah. I just don't see the significance here. It's a natural result of the way living systems have to organize themselves, where each individual unit has no knowledge of the whole, only what's around itself.>>1.618 etc. is a VERY specific number. You mean to tell me the human body wouldn't operate if the length of......uh.......whatever it was divided by whatever it was (it's late, brain no work good) was 1.619 instead of 1.618?

The thing about your human proportion argument is that humans aren't actualy proportioned that way.>>Are you saying that the length of the human body from the navel to the toes divided by whatever it was (or vice versa) doesn't equal Phi?

I'm pretty sure he is. (btw, remember the bees)>>I'd like to see proof that those claims aren't true.It sure ain't all humans with my 2 brothers and I as examples. We are all very differently proportioned. (only one of us is 'golden' ).>>Like I said, I need more proof than that.

No we haven't. We've just had heresay and a few home-taken measurments.I need more proof than this.This message has been edited by JasonChin, 10-11-2004 10:16 PM

Wow, you're quick......

But it's not MY statement...........it's a statement from a number of "official" sources, going back to the Rennisance or earlier.Therefore, it's up to you to present official statements to the contrary.

My arguments from authority beat your arguments from amaturity any day......especially when the authorities stretch back for hundreds or even thousands of years, with no refutation that anyone has mentioned.This message has been edited by JasonChin, 10-11-2004 11:22 PM

But those would still be amaturish calculations.

I am under the impression that there have been many authorities supporting the claim of the frequency with which Phi is found in nature, going back to the ancient greeks.