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Author Topic:   Evidence for and against Flood theories
edge
Member (Idle past 1737 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 25 of 112 (168757)
12-15-2004 11:43 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Jazzns
12-14-2004 6:52 PM


Re: Some more flood questions
quote:
I would feel more comfortable if someone else could verify that this is a correct assessment. After all, I only did get a B+ in Geo 102.
Actually, quite good for a layperson. What you are describing is a regressive-transgressive sequence.
quote:
Moreover, does anyone know of any good examples where we see this kind of this in the column?
There were several of these sequences in the late Cretaceous of the western US. The Mancos Shale is overlain by the Mesa Verde Group, overlain, in turn by the Lewis Shale in Colorado. THen more sand and more shale, etc., representing continuing regression and transgression. There are probably hundreds of such examples across the world of many different ages; which, of course, makes it even harder for YECs to explain.
The Mesa Verde Group is quite complex but extends eastward across the Rocky Mtn. area as a large toungue of fluvial sandstones, beach and swamp deposits into the Cretaceous epieric sea, which we can characterize as a shale basin. It is really quite instructive to study a stratigraphic reconstruction of this geological setting.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Jazzns, posted 12-14-2004 6:52 PM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by roxrkool, posted 12-16-2004 1:36 AM edge has replied
 Message 30 by Jazzns, posted 12-16-2004 10:55 AM edge has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1737 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 26 of 112 (168758)
12-15-2004 11:47 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by TheLiteralist
12-14-2004 2:37 AM


Re: Some more flood questions
quote:
I don't feel qualified to tackle all of them, ...
This has stopped very few YECs from trying...
quote:
... but maybe I can take a crack at some of them.
Fire at will. We shall see if you have anything that we have not heard at least fifty times before.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by TheLiteralist, posted 12-14-2004 2:37 AM TheLiteralist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by TheLiteralist, posted 12-15-2004 11:54 PM edge has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1737 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 42 of 112 (169942)
12-19-2004 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by TheLiteralist
12-19-2004 12:01 AM


Re: Some more flood questions
YECers would say, I think, that such sorting might represent temporary regressions of the flood waters during the initial 40 days and/or a set of layers being laid down in the initial flood stages and then being somehow affected in the recessional stages of the Flood.
Avoiding for the moment that this quickly becomes extra-biblical, you have a major problem with incorporating transgressions and regressions. The main problem is that there are likely hundreds of couplets in the geological record. The second problem is: where do you get the sediments that define the regressive sequences when the entire world is innudated with water?
I agree that my "sediments in a jar" experiment is rather simplistic compared to the complex variables that would be operating in a world-wide flood. That little experiment was intended merely to illustrate that a flood WILL make sediment layers and was a response to one or two people saying a world-wide flood would leave only ONE layer.
I'm sure the poster intended to mean a sequence that shows the flood process. And, yes, I am a geologist.
I feel obligated to repeat that I am not a geologist - I don't even have a descent layman's knowledge. I do have an idea of how hydrologic sorting works and that's pretty much it, I think.
And I feel obligated to tell you that you have a lot common with other YECs; except that some (most?) are not as honest as you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by TheLiteralist, posted 12-19-2004 12:01 AM TheLiteralist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by TheLiteralist, posted 12-20-2004 10:56 AM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1737 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 43 of 112 (169944)
12-19-2004 8:04 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by roxrkool
12-16-2004 1:36 AM


Re: Some more flood questions
Hey Edge, I was thinking of the same area though a little lower in the section. Coincidence??? lol
Are you saying that you have examples in low places?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by roxrkool, posted 12-16-2004 1:36 AM roxrkool has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1737 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 53 of 112 (170287)
12-20-2004 8:48 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by TheLiteralist
12-20-2004 10:56 AM


Re: Some more flood questions
Please excuse my ignorance, what are couplets? {added by edit: anything like the varve couplets I've been reading about in RAZD's correlations thread?}
Perhaps I am using the term inappropriately, but what I mean is a transgressive-regressive pair. Couplet usually refers fo pairs of individual sedimentary layers, like varves.
e: The second problem is: where do you get the sediments that define the regressive sequences when the entire world is innudated with water?
L: What I mean here is that there are from 40 to 150 days of rising flood waters. So the simple answer is that the "regressive sequences" would have occurred prior to the time of total inundation.
What is the mechanism for this and what evidence do you have to support it? You are running out of time for a 1 year flood.
e: I'm sure the poster intended to mean a sequence that shows the flood process.
L: I think Roxrkool said something like what you mean in THIS MESSAGE, but I am specifically referring to IrishRockHound's response in THIS MESSAGE. I mean no disrespect to IrishRockHound; I just doubt a world-wide flood would leave only ONE sediment layer.
Actually this is almost by definition. I do not think that anyone believes a global flood would leave only one sedimentary layer. After all, it must advance and then recede. However, having said that, there should be some unit, somewhere in the record that represents the ultimate extent in time and space of the flood. This unit, would be a time-stratigraphic horizon that most geologists could agree upon as the peak of the flood. No such horizon exists and no such sequence of rocks presents evidence for a global flood deposit.
e: And I feel obligated to tell you that you have a lot common with other YECs; except that some (most?) are not as honest as you.
L: I realize, of course, you are implying most, if not all, YECs know nothing about geology. I do try to be honest; thanks.
Actually, YECs like Austin know quite a bit about geology. That is why they are so successful at confusing the common person.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by TheLiteralist, posted 12-20-2004 10:56 AM TheLiteralist has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1737 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 54 of 112 (170291)
12-20-2004 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by TheLiteralist
12-20-2004 2:04 PM


Re: sorting & biomass
Why then are there overthrust and re-work theories for fossils not found in their expected evolutionary order?
Because there is evidence for them. You really need to get away from the creationist literature. Believe it or not, not everything done in geology is to prop up evolution.
How do you propose fossils form that is consistent with what you see in the geologic record?
Evolution. There is no competing mechanism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by TheLiteralist, posted 12-20-2004 2:04 PM TheLiteralist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by TheLiteralist, posted 01-04-2005 6:56 PM edge has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1737 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 81 of 112 (176058)
01-11-2005 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by TheLiteralist
01-11-2005 9:29 PM


Re: SeaShells on Mountain Tops
Yes, but the Flood model proposes that pretty much ALL the layers comprising Mt Everest were deposited during the Flood and then the mountain was uplifted during the receding stages. The fact that there are marine fossils IN the mountain is taken only as stronger evidence for such a scenario
THen you need to explain why these fossil communities developed in life position (as YECs love to point out) while sediment was being deposited at tens of feet per day...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by TheLiteralist, posted 01-11-2005 9:29 PM TheLiteralist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by TheLiteralist, posted 01-12-2005 12:07 AM edge has not replied
 Message 88 by TheLiteralist, posted 01-12-2005 4:25 AM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1737 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 82 of 112 (176059)
01-11-2005 11:47 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by TheLiteralist
01-11-2005 9:50 PM


Re: SeaShells on Mountain Tops
Well, I can't hope to explain the consequences of CPT (Catastrophic Plate Techtonics) or propose some other theory for the uplift of Mt. Everest.
Well, one consequence of catastophic plate tectonics would be boiling oceans and the complete sterilization of the earth, ark and all. And really there is no need for CPT since we have a perfectly good explanation for Mt. Everest that we can actually observe and measure. Why search out bizarre and unnecessary mechanisms?
However, this is different than saying that the fossils in the mountains are not evidence of the Flood.
Actually, they are evidence against a flood because they shouldn't be there, particularly under conditions of CPT as understood by YECs.
Rather, you are saying that IF the fossils are a result of the Flood, then the required and fairly sudden formation of the mountain presents an unsolved problem.
But we can avoid the problem entirely by using plate tectonics. Why go looking for more problems?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by TheLiteralist, posted 01-11-2005 9:50 PM TheLiteralist has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1737 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 94 of 112 (176392)
01-12-2005 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by TheLiteralist
01-12-2005 4:25 AM


Re: SeaShells on Mountain Tops
Are you referring to the fact that the oysters and clams are usually articulated and closed? And that the fossilized oysters are sometimes found fossilized in thick layers? Are these thick layers actually colonies?
Possibly. You would need to ask a biologist about this. However, it is immaterial to the point.
Oysters were fossilized in thick layers?
I have no idea. But once again that is not my point.
When oysters die, what usually happens to the shells? Don't they usually open and separate and get broken to bits? So a better question, is how, according to conventional geological concepts, did these numberous closed, articulated fossilized oysters form?
I have no problem with sudden events in the earth's history. The question is: how do you manage to grow multiple fossil communities on top of one another while meters of sedimentation occur each day? How do they populate the area (especially sessile organisms), reproduce and grow? Your argument makes no sense when all the facts are considered.
For the oysters' shells to have remained shut, it seems obvious that they must have been buried alive; so some mechanism for rapid burial is required. Of course, we YECers point to the Flood, what do conventional geologists point to?
There are many mass kill and mass burial events in the geological record. A few years ago a hundred elk were killed in Rocky Mountain NP in on evening. Are you saying that a flood caused the kill (actually, it was lightning)? Can you not imagine some other event that might have caused a mass kill and/or burial?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by TheLiteralist, posted 01-12-2005 4:25 AM TheLiteralist has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1737 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 95 of 112 (176393)
01-12-2005 10:43 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by TheLiteralist
01-12-2005 5:17 AM


Re: Some more flood questions
In my mind, I imagine the initial stages of the Flood (it took at least 40 days, perhaps 150 to completely cover the earth) having many events similar to the recent tsunami but perhaps more violent than the recent one. Did you notice how many of the animals vacated the areas? So only mostly sea life and curious humans would be found in the mud there (also the mud is probably not rich in carbonate--limestone in solution, right?--as the Flood waters are thought to have been--there being limestone everywhere today).
I have no idea what you are trying to say here. The tsunami mechanism of the great flood has been completely discredited. By the way, more violent tsunamis are documented as having killed many terrestrial creatures.
Okay...so most animals and humans (assuming the humans could somehow know the danger) escaped the initial tsunamis. But they came again and further inland and again and further inland and again and further inland. At some point in time, the animals might well find themselves running across carbonate-rich mud left from a previous tsunami, which partially lithified, only to be covered up by more sediments from more tsunamis.
You are reaching here. Why would a tsunami deposit carbonate muds? Why would the muds survive numerous tsunami events? Why would 100% of terrestrial animals survive the first xteen kilometers of sedimentation? Why would flowering plants survive longer than dinosaurs? There is an explanation for all this: there is no evidence whatsoever of a biblical scale flood.
I'm thinking mud-rich tsunamis again. Perhaps these eggs and nests were on the out skirts of the destruction by some of the initial tsunamis so as to get covered by mud but not crushed. Then after covered by that layer of mud another tsunami comes further inland covering that layer of mud, and so forth.
So the first dinosaur nests were not covered until the Mesozoic? Even though we have dinosaur habitat, footprints, etc. in coastal swamps?
Actually I am curious how conventional geology posits that dinosaur eggs fossilized, given that eggs are popular fare by most critters and they rot quickly if not hatched (and many are found in the process of hatching or with nearly fully formed baby dinos ready to hatch.) Fossilized dino eggs are not exactly rare, but shouldn't they be?
Some are covered by wind-blown sand, just as many organisms are buried today. Considering that any creature might try to select a protected place for a nest, I don't see this as terribly inconsistent with natural processes.
Do creationists propose this? I'm not sure. Why do you think they must?
Well, it is a logical conclusion from the YEC premise. Where do the coral reefs come from? How did they survive the flood? How did they grow such immense colonies in just a couple of thousand years? These are questions you need to ask.
I'll give the unconformities a shot. Tsunamis, landslides, etc. occur during the initial 40 - 150 days. In some cases the, layers are layed down at one angle. The global stress causes plate movement of some sort (CPT or not), which changes the angles of the dryish land. The next tsunami, which due to increased water levels is higher might well remove some of the previous sediments (which are now at a different angle) and redeposit at the new angle.
And how did those rocks manage to lithify in less than a year at the surface of the earth? Never mind the fact that we do not see any tsunami-type sedimentation. You should be getting the idea that tsunamis have been evoked before by YECs and been thoroughly shot down.
I haven't studied eolian sand dunes, but it does intrigue me that there are lithified "sand dunes" in the layers. I should probably try to do a little research on this, too.
I recommend avoiding the YEC literature on this. You will only get part of the picture.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by TheLiteralist, posted 01-12-2005 5:17 AM TheLiteralist has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1737 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 96 of 112 (176394)
01-12-2005 10:46 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by gengar
01-12-2005 12:42 PM


Re: SeaShells on Mountain Tops
But such situations are the exception rather than the rule, so we can just turn the question around. Surely if all sedimentary rocks on the planet are the result of a single burial event (The Flood), most things we see in the fossil record would have been catastrophically buried. Why is most of the stuff in the fossil record disarticulated? Why don't we get extensive preservation of soft tissue?
Furthermore, all living things in the fossil record must have lived at the same time, also. Where does Literalist see all of these organisms living. I have heard calculations that the biomass must have been kilometers(?) thick.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by gengar, posted 01-12-2005 12:42 PM gengar has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1737 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 103 of 112 (183544)
02-06-2005 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by Quetzal
02-06-2005 3:02 PM


Re: Coral
quote:
Of course, that doesn't do a thing for the Flud in reality. After all, even if these abyssal organisms survived, there's no way any of the surface corals would have - these guys really DO need shallow, usually warmish, clear water otherwise their photosynthetic symbionts die off - ultimately killing the coral polyp itself. Here's a nice readable article on deep sea corals by NOAA.
But then, it's not just depth either. Turbidity is a very effective killer of corals, and temperature is a major factor. Then there would be the problem of forming the huge reefs that we see today having hyper-evolved from deep water corals in a few thousand years. And THEN there is the problem of fossil coral reefs and how they managed to form during the flood. Ah, I wish it were just as simple as YECs seem to think the world to be...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Quetzal, posted 02-06-2005 3:02 PM Quetzal has replied

Replies to this message:
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