Did They Write About Jesus in the Law, the Prophets, and the Psalms?

I would venture to say that believers, by and large are more trusting and less skeptical than the general population. Some also suggest naive, but I would simply say content. This message has been edited by Phatboy, 04-17-2005 11:11 AM

Why not? That's what the Jews believe.

Actually, I believe Elijah raised someone from the dead without mentioning Jesus. See I Kings 17.

Yes but I mentioned Elijah -- and Elisha -- and pointed out that all who were raised from the dead in this life died again, including those Jesus raised. But Jesus' resurrection is eternal, the death of death forever.

Yes, you did mention Elijah and Elisha. Sorry, I missed it somehow.

None of the New Testament books existed at the time of Christ. Any references that he made had to be to the then available Scriptures, so Arch's limitations are certainly reasonable.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

there as a specific reason to rule out christian literature. it was written AFTER christ said what he said in the op. we're look for statements in two collections of books, the torah and the nevi'im, and five specifics books, the psalms. (it's five books, btw)it doesn't matter if christ is god incarnate or not. we're looking at messianic prophesies that pre-date christ. so far, i've tackled half of faith's "prophesies" and not one is actually a messianic prophesy. but the rest of the isaiah ones look promising. i'll look into those and purpledawn's post. oh that's bull. no offense or anything. we're looking for specific prophesies that fortell of the coming messiah, and are fulfilled with jesus. if something david wrote about himself, or had his psalmist write about him, it simply isn't a prophesy about jesus.for instance, psalm 22. "my god, why have you forsaken me?" when jesus said these words at his death, they were meant to refer to this psalm. it was meant to imply that feeling of being being torn apart by wild animals and political adversaries that david captured so well. there's a lot of symbolic meaning there, yes. but the psalm itself IS NOT ABOUT JESUS.i think the evidence presented in the very first post is rather conclusive that jesus had read the book of psalms. i wonder where he got it? judah. the old testament was written in judah, and exhiled judah in babylon. there's the occasional book from israel, but mostly it was written during the divided kingdom periods from a strictly JUDAIC (or "Jewish") perspective.i think jesus came as a jewish reformist, personal. i don't think he meant to found another religion. well some of these points really are "duh." i mean, the bit about jesus being from eve? every other person (or at least every other jew, depending on your reading) came from eve too. and i know we've discussed "seed of the woman" at length as well. messiah ≠ creator. a messiah is someong that leads the people, usually against oppression, adversaries, etc. the messiah in jesus's time was expected to get rid of rome, and take the rightful seat on david's throne.messiahs are also strictly mortal, not divine or angelic. this is not a problem, since jesus was mortal. (he died, right?) jesus also refers to himself as "son of man" which means "lowly mortal" and has messianic implications.

sure. here's one:

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Jhn 7:23 If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?

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interestingly enough, this verse HAS TO refer to genesis. there are no laws of circumcision in mosaic code. only in genesis.

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Gen 17:11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.

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that's part of the covenant of abraham, not the law of moses. it has nothing to do with moses, other than the fact it's in a collection of five books called "the law" attributed to a guy name "moses." how does that make any sense, though? what could rules speak of a messiah? they're just rules, not prophesy.This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 04-17-2005 05:38 PM

i agree with you here. that's why i posted the list at the beginning of the thread. so we'd know what was in the law, what was in the prophets, and what was in the writings that we're not including in the discussion.

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Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

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eve is called "the woman" because she as not been NAMED yet. she is not named until verse 20:

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Gen 3:20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

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"her seed" is also nothing special. it is used in several specific expressions:
1. actual seeds, as in plants.
2. semen
3. offspring/descendents. plural.it usually refers to EVERYONE that comes from that person, especially in genesis:

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Gen 9:9 And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you;

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that wasn't just to noah and one of his sons.

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Gen 12:7 And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.

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see how it's used? it's not about one specific person. ever. look up all the references if you really want.

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Job 14:1 Man [that is] born of a woman [is] of few days, and full of trouble.

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Job 15:14 What [is] man, that he should be clean? and [he which is] born of a woman, that he should be righteous?

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Job 25:4 How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean [that is] born of a woman?

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jewish society is MATRILINEAL, btw. if your mother was a jew, so are you.

OK Phatboy and Faith. This thread is in accuracy and inerrancy. Please show me in the OT where God says that prophecy requires divine wisdom for interpretation by regular people.Deuteromony 18:18-19
...I will put my words in his (the prophet) mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, ...Where does God say in the OT that regular people need divine wisdom to understand the words of the prophet? Please show me where God shows that prophecies will have double fulfillments. Please show me where God says that prophecies have two references.Please show me that these statements are Biblicly based.

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

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"The Law and the Prophets" is a Biblical phrase.

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But that's not what was said supposedly. But I will let you have it. It doesn't help your case.Genesis 3:15 is not a prophecy and you still haven't shown how it has anything to do with Jesus thousands of years later.

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Jesus was born of a woman, that is, Mary, and had no human father. Normally human beings are said to be the offspring of Adam, and Eve is not mentioned except in connection with Adam. To be born of the woman is something very specific about the Messiah who is promised.

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That's a nice yarn, but has nothing to do with Genesis 3:15.

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The Jews who rejected Jesus thought of him as a bastard, not having a legitimate father.

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I don't remember seeing this in the NT. More tales?Genesis 12:3 is part of a promise from God, not a prophecy. It has nothing to do with the messiah and you haven't shown that it does.Genesis 49:10 also has nothing to do with who the messiah is a descendant of. Jesus did not receive the scepter and rule Israel.

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Prophecy is purposely ambiguous.

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According to whom?

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

i'm not interested in those. in fact, i'm steadily disproving them, as these verse could have nothing to do with jesus at all. what we're interested in is messianic prophesy in the ot. and mot of these simply aren't even prophesy at all. then explain the seed reference. does satan have sons? daughters? the verse very plainly explains why a snake is a snake. it's an etiology of why snakes slither and lick the dust. for it to be about the devil, he'd have to be an animal that slithers and licks dust. not the devil. this action was done by the romans, not the descendants of a snake. i would call crucifixion "mortally wounded" wouldn't you? isn't the whole basis for the belief the DEATH of christ? you can't get resurrected if you didn't die. then the devil has been beaten! let's rejoice and never worry about temptation again! so basically you're saying that "god didn't do a very good job." right. did he beat satan, or not? there's the key. this verse is about the nation of israel. notice the word "nation" in the verse? not about a change in israel, about the FOUNDATION of israel the first time. actually, genesis was written several hundred years after the death of david. it's very possible it has messianiuc connotations. they might even be intended. so i'll let this one go for now as a "metaphorical reading" because it is generally accepted that the messiah would be from judah. actually, shiloh is the name of a city:

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Jos 18:1 And the whole congregation of the children of Israel assembled together at Shiloh, and set up the tabernacle of the congregation there. And the land was subdued before them.

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guess who was from shilod?

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1Sa 3:21 And the LORD appeared again in Shiloh: for the LORD revealed himself to Samuel in Shiloh by the word of the LORD.

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who did samuel make and yet when judah is taken in babylonian exhile, the king is dethroned and priests are either shut up or executed. so if this refers to christ, the prophesy was BROKEN. um. there are jewish priests today. the last davidian king of judah was in 577 bc, dethroned in babylon, well before jesus. i'm pretty sure herod's line extended for a while after the death of jesus too. and i already touchedo n both meanings. neither of which has anything to do with jesus.

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Deu 18:20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.

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or those messiahs that speak out turns... kill them.

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Deu 18:21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
Deu 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that [is] the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, [but] the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

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so we're to be afraid of the prophet who DOES say things that come true. are we to be afraid of jesus? also, i'm still waiting on that "meek shall inherit the earth" bit. both lived on this earth. it is completely erroneous to read SECOND meanings into prophesies that have already paid off. especially if they pay off 3 verses later. it's simply not talking about anything else.if we start playing that game, i can read anything into meaning anything. it's simply not valid. they're two different forms of poetry. look at prophesy in isaiah vs poetry in psalms. they use different verb tenses. one speaks of the future, one of the present. david speaks of the present. quite. not true. part of the messiahs qualifications is the restoration of the davidian line of kings. if his line had continued like normal, there'd be no need for that sort of messiah. and god's promise to david was:

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2Sa 7:15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took [it] from Saul, whom I put away before thee.
2Sa 7:16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.

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while i know you will address this as fulfilled by jesus, and i might agree that in some respect that might even be a valid reading... it really isn't. because god's mercy DID depart from david's throne. zedekiah was kicked off it when he died in 577 bc. and there never was another davidian king. the nt authors wrote jesus into filling this gap. replacing actual kingship with a metaphysical ideal. one type of son of god for the other. this verse is about literal kingship. and david would have thought nathan's prophesy would have meant that, no need for a messiah. that's silly. and it's not prophetic language. the verse i posted above from samuel is. this verse said the son of god was begotten the day he was installed as king on god's mountain. it indicates that "begotten" does not mean literal fathership, since he would NOT have been begotten before that time. it also indicates that "only begotten son of god" is a rather silly phrase. there are lots of sons of god mentioned in the bible, and only one of them is jesus. no double fulfillments. is god overcompensating for something? the verse is abotu david. is nt authors are referencing this pre-extisting text in terms of jesus, that just what they're doing: referencing. it's not prophesy regarding something if something else has already fulfilled it. i doubt it.and if it is, it can't refer to jesus. for instance, the people who are persecuting the person in question are explicitly named: the mighty ones of bashan. as in of the tribe of manasseh. other jews. not romans, and the *levites* who persecuted jesus. the details simply don't line up. heh, well that's what you get for copying and pasting a whole long list. i wanted to take these one at a time.

actually, the verse after that sort of says to kill the prophets who's prophesies don't plainly come true. yeah, if anything they should have three, right? or 7? 13? 2 is an uncommon number in the bible.

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No, but again it's IN the Law, in the Law of Moses or the Torah. That's what "The Law and the Prophets" means.
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i agree with you here. that's why i posted the list at the beginning of the thread. so we'd know what was in the law, what was in the prophets, and what was in the writings that we're not including in the discussion.

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Yes, I noticed that we agreed. But you seemed to be thinking of the passages Jesus had quoted rather than the Messianic passages, so that when you dismissed some of them, such as Daniel, you were missing the point. (Actually I looked it up and IIRC there are three verses in Daniel that Jesus quoted from, but I'm afraid I'd have to look it up again as I've forgotten them)Also, just as a reminder, the New Testament references on the list are statements of the fulfillments of the Messianic prophecies. The prophecies are the Old Testament scriptures, and all from the Torah, the Prophets and the Psalms and the NT give fulfillments. I forgot the psalms the first time around.

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Jesus was born of a woman, that is, Mary, and had no human father. Normally human beings are said to be the offspring of Adam, and Eve is not mentioned except in connection with Adam. To be born of the woman is something very specific about the Messiah who is promised.

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Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

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Eve is called "the woman" because she as not been NAMED yet. she is not named until verse 20:

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Gen 3:20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

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Yes, but she is still a Type of Mary.

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"her seed" is also nothing special. it is used in several specific expressions:
1. actual seeds, as in plants.
2. semen
3. offspring/descendents. plural.

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it usually refers to EVERYONE that comes from that person, especially in genesis:

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Yes, but again, there is often more than one reference in Old Testament characters and images. "Seed" refers both to all her children AND to the singular Messiah.What makes the reference particularly clear is that the pronoun is not plural, but singular: "his heel" --not "their heels" but "his heel."

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Gen 9:9 And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you;

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that wasn't just to noah and one of his sons.

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In that case, yes, God's covenant with Noah was established with the entire human race.

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Gen 12:7 And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.

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see how it's used? it's not about one specific person. ever. look up all the references if you really want.

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Well, but I showed the singular pronoun in "his heel" already. Actually I've been through this discussion times before. Unfortunately I'm not very good at keeping track of my sources. I probably have it somewhere in my Favorites, misfiled. Anyway, there is at least one place where God speaks to Abraham about his Seed that it is clear it is not only to the people who will come from him, though it is that too, but also to the Messiah the individual. If I find the reference I will post it.

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To be said to be "born of a woman" was not exactly a Jewish way of thinking, as it was a patriarchal society,

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Job 14:1 Man [that is] born of a woman [is] of few days, and full of trouble.

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Job 15:14 What [is] man, that he should be clean? and [he which is] born of a woman, that he should be righteous?

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Job 25:4 How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean [that is] born of a woman?

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OK but Job wasn't Jewish. Is that a familiar Jewish way of talking? If so I stand corrected.I know that Jewish society is matrilineal, which is in fact how Jesus' lineage can be legitimated through His mother without a human father. But it was also patriARCHAL, not MATRIarchal.The Job passages about being justified, clean, righteous, are famous as background to the messianic passage in which Job declares that he knows that his Redeemer will come, and will stand upon the earth, that though he is unclean, born of a woman, yet he will be justified with God. Human beings born of a woman are born in Original Sin, but a Redeemer will come, also born of a woman, and be the Sacrifice that cleanses and redeems us from the bondage of sin, the Mediator between God and Man, which can only be accomplished by one who IS both God and Man. Job is saying he desperately needs such a Mediator as God is so wholly Other from him. He keeps pleading for a way to bring his case before God, and realizes that since he is merely a man and God is God that he can't do this. He needs a Mediator, he needs a Redeemer, and then he gives his statement of faith that this Savior WILL in fact come and he will see Him face to face.As far as Jesus' being born of a woman goes, if He was born with Original Sin from His mother, nevertheless He remained perfectly sinless all His life, obeying the Law to perfection, so that He could be the "Lamb without spot or blemish" to die in our place.

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jewish society is MATRILINEAL, btw. if your mother was a jew, so are you.

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Jesus was certainly bona fide Jewish.

There is a difference between Deuteronomy 18:15 and the statement made at the end of the Book. Then he proceeded to tell them how to tell a true prophet from a false one.Now for the end of the book: In the first one God is sending a prophet (not a messiah) to speak God's word to the people as Moses did. The true prophets that followed fit the bill.The end of the book states that no prophet has done the same miracles as Moses.What words of God did Jesus pass on? IOW, he proclaimed to the people that God said....

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France