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Author | Topic: Did They Write About Jesus in the Law, the Prophets, and the Psalms? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
I wouldn't totally disagree with that. The biggest difference is that the letters of Paul were personal correspondence and directed to specific and limited audiences.
The contents of the Talmud on the other hand are addressed to the whole Faith and are certainly instructive in nature. The also have the very great advantage of often being annotated. The detail involved in the Talmud is something that must be understood if one is to have any real comprehension of much of what Jesus is speaking about. For example, take the book of Ester. There were only five days when the book could be and must be read, and which day depended on whether you lived in a walled city or unwalled city and on the day of the week in relation to actual date. This seems like a very small matter until you dive into long and ranging discussions of the Talmud. Only then can you understand the discussions between Jesus and the different Jewish elders. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
quote: I said it was hard to pin down and it is. It's quite controversial and contested by some Jewish sources despite its making sense that the Jews would not have good things to say about this wannabe Messiah whose Deity they certainly deny -- and what would that make him but a bastard given the story of his virgin birth? Anyway this is the best I've found, from something called "The Jewish Encyclopedia" and It gives quite a list of footnotes, for what it's worth:
In Jewish Legend: The Jewish legends in regard to Jesus are found in three sources, each independent of the others(1) in New Testament apocrypha and Christian polemical works, (2) in the Talmud and the Midrash, and (3) in the Life of Jesus (Toledot Yeshu‘) that originated in the Middle Ages. It is the tendency of all these sources to belittle the person of Jesus by ascribing to him illegitimate birth, magic, and a shameful death. Vol. VII, Page 170: "The Jewish Encyclopedia"
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
But it was that very Oral History, the interpretations of the Talmud that Jesus was discussing so very often. For example, the very first book (and there are books) of the Talmud concerns the Sabath, what exactly can and cannot be done, what qualifies as work, which was the very point Jesus was disputing when healing on the holiday. The Talmud has always been the arbitor or behavior covering everything from hygene to fire fighting. Yes, but since Jesus was objecting to many of those rules of behavior that are given in the Talmud and practiced by the Jews of His day, this shows that He did not regard it as scripture, as He would not object to scripture, which came from God Himself.
To say that the Talmud is not Scriptural is to lose much of what governed the day to day life, thinking and religion at the time of Jesus. Again, scriptural means it was given by God. The Jews regard it as given by God but Christians don't and Jesus didn't. He criticized the Pharisees for their Talmudic views which He called "traditions of men" that were not in the spirit of scripture. Certainly it is a good source of knowledge of the day to day life of the time, and it does illuminate the conflict between Jesus and the Pharisees, but that doesn't make it scriptural. {EDIT: Keep adding to this for clarity. Hope it doesn't cause any confusion} This message has been edited by Faith, 04-19-2005 01:53 AM This message has been edited by Faith, 04-19-2005 01:54 AM This message has been edited by Faith, 04-19-2005 02:50 AM
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
quote: At the time I wasn't concentrating on which prophecy is which so I may have said something confusing but I meant to give only the general statement that prophecy OFTEN HAS a double fulfillment. But the Isaiah prophecy didn't have a present tense fulfillment at all. there was no child in Ahaz' time that was given as a sign to him. The sign was only a messianic prophecy. There has only been one virgin birth in history and that was Jesus Christ. This message has been edited by Faith, 04-19-2005 02:53 AM
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
In mainstream Christianity there are no more apostles. There were only the original apostles chosen personally by Jesus. The Mormons call some of their elders apostles but the mainstream churches consider most of their beliefs heretical, and there are some pentecostal/charismatic groups who do the same, but again this is rejected by the orthodox churches.
This message has been edited by Faith, 04-19-2005 02:48 AM This message has been edited by Faith, 04-19-2005 02:49 AM
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Legend Member (Idle past 5036 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: |
ok, sorry, I misread you.
"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
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Legend Member (Idle past 5036 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: |
quote: you're probably right. He seems to have been influenced a lot by hellenistic ideas, so he probably was exposed to Greek culture early on, even if he was of Jewish origins. "In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1374 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
Yes, but since Jesus was objecting to many of those rules of behavior that are given in the Talmud and practiced by the Jews of His day, this shows that He did not regard it as scripture, as He would not object to scripture, which came from God Himself. assuming his views were out of line with the talmud.
The Jews regard it as given by God but Christians don't and Jesus didn't. He criticized the Pharisees for their Talmudic views which He called "traditions of men" that were not in the spirit of scripture. this then also rules out the epistles as scripture. (ignoring the fact that jesus obviously wouldn't have recognized ANY of the nt as scripture, since none of it had been written yet)
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1374 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
In mainstream Christianity there are no more apostles. mormons have apostles. catholics have popes. both of which serve the same functions, and are fairly mainstream.
There were only the original apostles chosen personally by Jesus. that doesn't include paul.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1374 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
you're probably right. i'd really like to find some more stuff about it. it's just a sneaking suspicion right now.
He seems to have been influenced a lot by hellenistic ideas, so he probably was exposed to Greek culture early on, even if he was of Jewish origins. yeah, i've noticed a lot of hellenistic tendencies. but i don't know enough about the greek history and the hellenistic jews to really make a call on this. all i know is that paul's arguments are not only diametrically opposed to jewish traditions, but blatantly misunderstand them as well. it's been seeming to me as if christianity as a whole doesn't sit very sqaurely on it's jewish foundation. there's a lot of misrepresentation, misunderstanding, and just general deciet and misuse of jewish scripture. i know that at some point, the christian church decided to break away from judaism, but this is a bit outrageous.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:You claim the prophecy was only for Jesus, therefore you need to show me that Jesus fulfilled the entire prophecy. Isaiah 7:12 (NIV) But Ahaz said, "I will not ask, nor will I test the LORD!" 7:13 Then Isaiah said, "Listen now, O house of David! Is it too slight a thing for you to try the patience of men, that you will try the patience of my God as well? 7:14 "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel. 7:15 "He will eat curds and honey at the time He knows enough to refuse evil and choose good. 7:16 "For before the boy will know enough to refuse evil and choose good, the land whose two kings you dread will be forsaken. 7:17 "The LORD will bring on you, on your people, and on your father's house such days as have never come since the day that Ephraim separated from Judah, the king of Assyria." 7:18 In that day the LORD will whistle for the fly that is in the remotest part of the rivers of Egypt and for the bee that is in the land of Assyria. 7:19 They will all come and settle on the steep ravines, on the ledges of the cliffs, on all the thorn bushes and on all the watering places. 7:20 In that day the Lord will shave with a razor, hired from regions beyond the Euphrates (that is, with the king of Assyria), the head and the hair of the legs; and it will also remove the beard. 7:21 Now in that day a man may keep alive a heifer and a pair of sheep; 7:22 and because of the abundance of the milk produced he will eat curds, for everyone that is left within the land will eat curds and honey. 7:23 And it will come about in that day, that every place where there used to be a thousand vines, valued at a thousand shekels of silver, will become briars and thorns. 7:24 People will come there with bows and arrows because all the land will be briars and thorns. 7:25 As for all the hills which used to be cultivated with the hoe, you will not go there for fear of briars and thorns; but they will become a place for pasturing oxen and for sheep to trample. God speaks to Isaiah again concerning the boy:
Isaiah 8:3 Then the LORD said to me, "Name him Maher-shalal-hash-baz; 8:4 for before the boy knows how to cry out 'My father' or 'My mother,' the wealth of Damascus and the spoil of Samaria will be carried away before the king of Assyria."... 8:10 "Devise a plan, but it will be thwarted; State a proposal, but it will not stand, For God is with us." After Jesus was born, which two lands were forsaken before Jesus knew enough to refuse evil and choose good? After Jesus was born, were the spoils of Samaria and the wealth of Damascus carried away before the king of Assyria before Jesus could speak? "The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
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Legend Member (Idle past 5036 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: |
quote: I know some about greek history but nothing about jewish traditions. As this is off-topic here, I think I'll start a new thread on Paul. Will let you know when I do. "In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Please share the verses where Jesus spoke of following the spirit of the law and not the letter. Thanks "The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
We have some contoversy goin on!
Faith writes: I do not agree. Jesus recognised scripture from the O.T. for what it was. His disagreement was centered on the behavior of the Jews who were outwardly pious and inwardly adamant of their own worthiness. since Jesus was objecting to many of those rules of behavior that are given in the Talmud and practiced by the Jews of His day, this shows that He did not regard it as scripture, as He would not object to scripture, which came from God Himself.The issue was not the rules. The issue was misuse and/or manipulation of those rules. purpledawn writes:
There are numerous references. Please share the verses where Jesus spoke of following the spirit of the law and not the letter.NIV writes: So what is the motive of worship? What is our source of expression? Vanity or impartation? What is the "spirit" of the word? Jesus goes on to explain the source: Matt 15:4-11= For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.' which is the letter of the law But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,' he is not to 'honor his father' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. Jesus accuse them of manipulating scripture You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:"'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; They worship me out of their own vanity
their teachings are but rules taught by men.'" NIV writes:
Jesus is lambasting the Pharisees for following the letter of the Law while ignoring the spirit of it. Matt 15:17-18= "Don't you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.'What is the greatest commandment? NIV writes:
We know that Jesus and the Jewish leaders of the day did not see eye to eye.
Matt 22:37-40= Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." Arachnophilia writes: it's been seeming to me as if christianity as a whole doesn't sit very sqaurely on it's jewish foundation. there's a lot of misrepresentation, misunderstanding, and just general deciet and misuse of jewish scripture. I know that at some point, the christian church decided to break away from judaism, but this is a bit outrageous. What should be the foundation? Should the foundation be a ritualistic adherence to laws, precepts and words? Jesus was confronting men who were experts in the Talmud. Why was He confronting them? Faith writes:
There were only the original apostles chosen personally by Jesus.Arachnophilia writes:
Not according to Acts. that doesn't include paul.NIV writes:
So did Saul/Paul appoint himself as an Apostle to the Gentiles or did God annoint and equip him? Acts 9:4-6= He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?" "Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked. "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting," he replied. "Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do." This message has been edited by Phatboy, 04-19-2005 06:58 AM
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Scripture is written, so no Jesus would not have considered the Talmud (oral law) to be written. Scripture does not mean it came from God, it means it is written. I don't believe the term scripture was used in that way in the time of Jesus. The Jews believe that the Oral Law also came from God. It was given directly to Moses. It was just as holy as the Tanakh. The oral law changed with the culture to explain the written law. The oral law can be discussed and changed if necessary. Doing so doesn't necessarily mean the discussers considered the oral law not to be holy. Jesus presented support for his arguments.
quote:You don't know how Jesus regarded the Oral Law. "The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
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