Article: Religion and Science

Parents teach their kids falsehoods all the time. There are 3 common mythical figures that parents often teach their kids are real, Santa, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy. Parents tell their kids that if they watch too much TV that they will go blind. There are all kinds of things that parents tell their kids often knowing that they are complete lies. Whether or not is in good concience depends on what concience the parent has for those things.I personally think it is a shame to teach your kids about santa, the EB, the TF, and God, tell them later that the first 3 are not real and expect them to believe that the 4th one is real. That is why the first three of those will not be part of what my kids ever consider real.

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If you are simply stating that you believe that raising I child with a Fundamentalist education is wrong, then you and I are not in disagreement. But then what is the point? They will raise their children as they see fit, whether we like it or not -- and in accordance with state-mandated standards of education.

Well, personally I'm all for an element of fantasy in children. I see no problems with teaching any and all of the above.There is though a difference between things that are the area of belief, and factual, practical knowledge. This thread is on religion and science.IMHO, a literalist interpretation of religion, not just Christianity although it is perhaps the greatest offender, is inimical to both learning science and the general welfare of society.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

No argument here, as long as the children know it is fantasy. I agree that it is important for children to be exposed to fantasy as long as they are not taught and continually re-inforced that their fantasy is real. Of course that is my opinion. I am not so convinced that it is dangerous to society as long as they are not trying to push it into govn't and schools. I would really have no problem with literalists beliefs if they weren't trying to push their agenda like they are.We will always need people to fill the roles in society that don't require extensive education. I am perfectly happy to let the willfull ignorant fill those roles.

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Ah, like President or Senator or Congressman. I see. IMHO there is a problem. We have a problem because people indoctrinated through such systems often end up in decision making capacities, in Congress, the white House, and increasingly (by design) on school boards. Increasingly, literalists are becoming the tyrants. Look at what happened in Georgia and is going on now in Kansas. Look at the attempt to push through legislative "Student Bill of Rights".Make no mistake. Science and critical thinking are under direct attack by the Religious Fundamentalists and they are a far bigger threat than terrorist will ever be. The goal of the Christian Literalists is Mandated Ignorance. It's not their own willful ignorance, they want to force through law and legislation ignorance on every person in the world.Their methods are threefold, gain control of the school boards, gain control of local governments and gain control of the broadcast medium. They don't need to control all the media, only enough outlets so that their propaganda becomes ubiquitous. And they have that today.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

You know what? Your post could be easily parodied from the Far Right or the Racist Right. Here's the original followed by the parody: ***************** PARODY OF JAR'S POST: **************** [quote] IMHO there is a problem. We have a problem because [Jews, blacks, Leftists] ...often end up in decision making capacities, in Congress, the white House, and increasingly (by design) on school boards. Increasingly, [Jews, blacks, Leftists] ... are becoming the tyrants. Look at what happened in [ various states where Leftist laws are being "pushed through the legislature" ] and is going on now in [ ditto ]. Look at the [Judicial activism which has forced all kinds of Leftist laws on us by usurping the function of the legislature and effectively destroying the Constitutional balance of powers and circumventing the voice of the people, which is SUPPOSED to be what this nation is all about.]Make no mistake. [Religion and morality] are under direct attack by the [Left] and they are a far bigger threat than terrorist[s] will ever be. The goal of the [Left] is [a totalitarian society in which conservative voices are silenced by force]. It's not their own [right to live their own lives as they see fit], they want to force through law and legislation [their leftist views] on every person in the world.Their methods are threefold, gain control of the school boards, gain control of local governments and gain control of the broadcast medium. They don't need to control all the media, only enough outlets so that their propaganda becomes ubiquitous. And they have that today.[/quote]You are opposing the legitimate functions of a free society, you are opposing democracy itself.You reveal by this post that you aren't in disagreement with Brian at heart after all. You show your distrust of a free society in which free citizens have a voice in the running of the society which has always been popularly tagged as the right to "grow up to become President." Such suspiciosness would always prefer some form of state oppression to curtail the rights of those with whom you disagree, the exact opposite of the spirit of the American Constitution.I think I hit on the best answer to you on the other thread this morning: In a free society people are allowed to be wrong. That means nobody has the right to force them to be right.This message has been edited by Faith, 06-23-2005 09:36 PM

Please.(Long commute home.)

Please point out where I called for state oppression.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

You cannot defend a free society by undermining its foundations. And cannot oppose tyranny itself by establishing a tyranny.

You don't directly, but in spirit by complaining about the freedom of those you disagree with to operate within society according to democratic means you appear to sympathize with oppressive means to your ends. You appear to favor preventing parents from raising their children as they please. If I have misread you, and all you want to do is try to persuade, I apologize.This message has been edited by Faith, 06-23-2005 09:33 PM

... then it does not lie with in Faith's desire for home schooling but in the attempt of others to take over the public school system, and ultimately the government and society itself. And if you wish to defend this society, you may have to reach out to people who do not believe exactly the same way you do. People who you may oftentimes be at odds with, but with whom you share at least some values.

So you will continue your willful ignorance even to include what has been said to you. No problem. It's a perfect example of my point.People who have been brainwashed and indoctrinated into the Literalist Christian mentality are incapable of critical analysis. They are incapable of making reasoned decisions. How can we in good conscience expect them to make reasoned descisions when they have been trained, brainwashed, to ignore reality if it conflicts with some belief?You say: I find it absolutely unbelievable that parents want to teach their children falsehoods. It is absolutely unbelievable that a parent wants to handicap their own child, to cripple their own child. That is what Literalist Christians are doing. They are attacking their children, their country, the world, the environment and the message of Jesus.I fear the world that will result from such ignorant parents. I fear the current drive towards tyranny led by Literalist Christians. They scare the hell out of me.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Let's give people a chance to collect their thoughts.

I'm not going to try to define ID beyond saying if it's called Intelligent Design but it's not what biologist are doing then leave it out. Just teach the biology that biologists are doing at University levels. Teach current science. As the science changes the ciriculum changes. ID is a political attempt to slip religious concerns into a science class. That topic should be in a philosophy of science class or something but not in a biology class.lfen

I have decided that it is important to call my opponents on their character assassinations and personal attacks. Therefore I am pointing out yours: This is worthy of a suspension.Now to the substance: Here is a clear statement of your will to force these dreadful human beings you hate so much to submit to YOUR "reasoned decisions." You discredit them personally as even CAPABLE of such. Well, what do good fascists do with people who are incapable? Curtail their rights, make sure they cannot act upon their opinions, either by laws against them or if all else fails, the gulag. As long as you keep poisoning the well this way to make your opponents appear to be as evil as possible, you can rouse all kinds of unthinking people to your "cause." This is a common technique of demagogues and fascist dictators. Simply smear the opposition with emotion-laden labels (they want to teach their children falsehoods) and you can turn your constituents into wolves ready to tear the heart out of such evil people. The demagoguery and rabble-rousing escalates. Soon we'll have a lynch mob. Have you no capacity whatever to see things from your opponents' point of view, to give the benefit of the doubt, to recognize that like all parents they have only the best for their children at heart? You are doing to Christians what Hitler did to the Jews -- giving them a public image as evil. You in fact are violating the message of Jesus with your utterly uncharitable mischaracterization of your opponents. Well, your fascist spirit scares the hell out of me so we're even.