Article: Religion and Science

One problem with the homeschooling of children by Christians, or the setting up of Christian schools as a result of 'going their own way', is that society is allowing children to enter into a potentially psychologically damaging area. By standing back and allowing parents to suffocate children with what is known to be misinformation amd mythology, we are abandoning our duty as a society to look after all children.How do Christians feel about a Satanist school for 5-14 year olds? Will every cult be allowed to teach their kids exactly what they want regardless of how silly it is?Yes, parents are repsonsible for their own children, but everyone in that society has a responsibility to ensure that every child is not being abused either physically or psychologically.All schools and homeschooled situations should always be monitored by the local education department to ensure that what is being taught is appropriate and beneficial to the child. Teaching that 4400 years ago God wiped out all life except that on a boat is 100% true is not appropriate to teach a child in lightof all of the contrary evidence.Sure, teach the Flood story or creation in a religious studies class, that is where it belongs.But to try and teach anything in the Bible in a science class is a joke, and a sick one at that.Brian.

I just used Satanism as an example, but allowing one group this luxury would mean that all groups should be granted it, there would be chaos in education circles. I am against all forms of child abuse.Brian.

Hi, But we are not talking abut just teaching YEC, we are talking about teaching the whole of the Bible as being literally true in a fundamentalist environment.I sometimes think that people underestimate just how influential a teacher can be on the life of our children. Children (most anyway) literally think that everything their teachers say is true, some cannot imagine that there teacher would be wrong about something.This is where the problems will come in. Children are entitled to a balanced education that will equip them with the skills to survive and cope in the adult world when they are ready to leave school. This places a lot of responsibility on teachers to ensure that their subject knowledge is of a decent standard and that they teach their subject as objectively as possible.I teach five different faiths in my classes, and each one is given the same respect, I never bring my personal beliefs into the classroom. In fact, as I have said before here, if I did promote one faith over another I would be warned to be more careful in the future. If I persisted in promoting one faith then I would be eventually shown the door. Children at school should be shown the facts and figures and then be allowed to come to their own conclusions, that is what education is all about. We want to help equip youngsters with the skills that enable them to make informed choices. To do this, the teacher has to be as impartial as possible and just deliver the information in a suitable fashion for their students to understand.There is no way on Earth that a fundamentalist teacher will give equal respect to Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism and Christianity.Can you imagine a fundy Christian teacher telling a class that Jews, generally speaking, do not believe that the Messiah has been born yet, and then giving the reasons why and then leaving it at that? No danger, we all know what the lessons in Religious Education would consist of. This particular one would be about how wrong Jews are and that Jesus fulfilled all the messianic prophecies in the Old Testament, this is not a fair and balanced education that the child is getting. They would NOT be allowed to come to their own conclusions, they would be TOLD what is true and what isn’t, they wouldn’t be told just how many Old Testament prophecies Jesus didn’t fulfil, they wouldn’t be told that most of the prophecies mentioned in the New Testament aren’t really prophecies at all.What would their history classes be filled with? Would they get a fair and balanced view of certain historical events? Would the ‘history’ in the Bible be the focus of all of the history courses? Would they be told that most of the history in the Bible is actually false history? Would they be told that miracles are outside the spectrum of historical enquiry? I don’t think so. They would be told that every word in the Bible is true and that it is all historically accurate, any child that asked a question would be given a Bible verse to look at, there would be virtually no external references for the child to consider.Can you imagine a child who has a keen interest in Egyptology informing their history teacher that the Egyptian history goes back uninterrupted for nearly 7000 years? They would be given a Bible and asked to count up the years from Adam’s birth to Jesus birth, then told that Egyptian chronology is flawed, and when they ask why it is flawed they would be told because it doesn’t fit with what the Bible says!It would go on and on throughout the entire curriculum. Geography, there was a world wide flood 4400 years ago, a child asks How do we know?, they are told, because the Bible says so. But there is a huge difference here. I am not a scientist, but my colleagues inform me that the Neandethal Man — Human link was only ever taught as a theory, it was never taught as a fact. As far as I am aware, no scientific theory is ever taught as a fact, that is why it is termed a ‘theory’. For example, evolution is a fact, probably the most authenticated fact in the history of the world, but the reasons for evolution are taught as theories and not facts. Theories are only taught as the best possible explanation given the evidence that we have at the moment.YEC has NEVER had ANY evidence to support it, in fact the only ‘evidence’ presented are ancient folk tales, and even then the followers don’t agree if it present an old or young universe! So, how can something that is so clearly a myth is taught in a science class?Anyone attempting to do this is corrupting the intellectual development of the child, as it is tantamount to abuse. Here is another problem, and one where my idea that the child is being abused comes in to play. Children are very impressionable, and during their years as ‘concrete’ learners all the foundations for the way they think is laid down. Constantly bombarding a child in the stages of concrete learning with utter crap will lead the child to believe that the utter crap is accurate. When you say that they will come to the conclusion that it isn’t true you are forgetting the ones who have been so brainwashed that they will never come to that conclusion. Even the ones that do come to that conclusion will not do so overnight, it is often a long drawn out process, how tormented will the child be when they find out that their parents have deliberately been feeding them bull for X amount of years? This torment is a result of being psychologically abused. But no one is suggesting that. The Scottish Education system was the envy of the world at one time, I am not so sure anymore, but what is wrong with the system we have now? I am not familiar with the USA education system, but from what I read here it appears to be in some sort of crisis, there obviously was a time when it was running well and producing well-balanced, highly intelligent people, but, trust me, the rest of the world is beginning to think that the average American is some sort of half-wit. This is the image that is projected on TV screens around the world. On one channel you have Bush staring vacantly at a camera, unable to string two words together, he must be an embarrassment to all Americans. Turn to another station and you have the ‘God Channel’, and yes, Oh MY God, what a shower of morons on there, and almost all are Americans, what is happening to the USA? One child being abused is one too many.Brian.

The discussion was concerning fundamentalist christians 'going their own way'. Yes, but we are all responsible for ensuring that children are being looked after properly. If you suspect that a child is being abused in some way surely you would inform the correct services, even if you are ultimately wrong? You wouldnt expect social services to say, "well, it's their children, they can do what they want with them". These people live in the state, if they aren't happy with that state then bugger off to another one. It is still the state's responsibility to ensure that these children are being given a proper education, we all need to know what exactly is being taught in these schools. If a fundy school was teaching that Islam is a faith built on violence and fear, should that be allowed to be taught to children of an impressionable age? When woul dthe world ever get any better? Where does the tolerance come in?If parents want to teach their faith to their kids out of normal school hours then that's fine, but at least the kids are equipped with the proper skills to decide whether mummy and daddy are talking shit or not. And does the child get a say in this, or is it like being dragged along to Church to follow the faith of your parents. This is basically what it is, parents are bringing children up in THIER faith, it isn't the child's faith. The child is too young to work out what is going on, and by the time they do all the psychological abuse has made it difficult to let go of the fantasy world created by their parents.Remember, we are not just talking about religious education here, a fundy school would include the Bible in every single class subject. But we arent talking just about teaching the religion, we are talking about teaching science form a non-science book, history from a book that doesnt contain much real history, we are talking about teaching myths as FACTS. We arent talking about teaching kids that their faith BELIEVES that the universe is 6000 years old, we are talking about telling kids for a fact that it is 6000 years old and that any contrary evidence is wrong. Hey, you are entitled to your opinion, no probs at all, this is only my opinion based on some firsthand experience.Brian.This message has been edited by Brian, 06-23-2005 11:35 AM

I have no problem with parents teaching their children about the parents' faith.It is when aspects of that FAITH is being taught as fact, that there is a problem. Especially when children will not be informed about the evidence that disproves most of what the Bible says, if the text is taken literally of course. This is only relating to those matters that can be falsified, the spiritual side is either affirmed or denied, it is never proven. However, as history and archaeology have shown muchof the old testament to be exactly what it looks like, i.e. mythology, then this should not be taught as FACT. To inform a child that everything in the Bible is true, is not only a lie, it is also psychologically abuse.Brian.

But, it is our business, it is everyone's business in a civilised society to ensure that ALL children are safe and well looked after, including not being psychologically abused.Would you be happy for a parent to bring up their child, surrounding that child fromthe day they were born, in the belief that the child would have to kill themsleves the next time a comet passes by Earth? If that is all that the child ever hears and hears no contrary evidence, the child may well kill itself when the next comet appears. So we do have a responsibility to make sure our children are being well educated. And these same people recognise the right of the child! Go to the UINCEF website and find the Convention on the Right of the Child. Children are not the property of their parents, they are individual human beings with rights of their own.Why should children be brought up to follow their PARENTS faith? Hey, you could get suspended for that.Why do you always resort to personal abuse?But, as far as the 'history' contained n the Old Testament, there is hardly an historian or archaeologist on the planet that takes Genesis through Judges as being 100% accurate, including fundamentalist Christian historians and archaeologists such as Nahum Sarna.Brian.

No parent believes that they have the right to abuse thier child in this way, no civilised society would allow it.A parent doesn't own a child, they cannot do what they like with that child.Dear God in heaven think about what you are saying.Brian.

If you think it is your right to abuse a child psychologically then there is something far wrong with you.You haven't lost any right here, because no one has the right to do what you are saying.Brian.

What are you on about now?Brian.

Oh right That was a joke, lighten up chica.Brian.

Hi L'f,My initial post is regarding the teaching of a child's entire spectrum of education being left to a fundy school, not just in regard to religion.It was hypothetical.A child is entitled to a balanced all round education, and they wouldnt be getting that.I have no problem with parents teaching their children what they BELIEVE, it is when they force this information on to kids as being FACTUAL before the child is suitably equiped to make an informed conclusion about the information.Teaching a child that the universe is 6000 years old, when the child is deprived of a mainstream education with which to help them come to a decision about whether this is plausible or not is wrong.Take the 2+2 = 5 example.Don't you think that a child should be exposed to an environment where 2+2 = 4 is promoted?I am talking about an exclusively fundamentalist education where no mainstream education is accessed.Brian.AbE, The people you know who were brought up as fundies, but are now not, I would be surprised if they did not have access to mainstream education as well as fundy ed.This message has been edited by Brian, 06-23-2005 03:23 PM

I was speaking hypothetically. It is everyone's business to ensure that children are being treated correctly, and what you are advocating is tantamount to criminal behaviour.Watch my lips NO ONE OWNS A CHILD, do you understand that? A child is not a piece of property, you cannot do anything that you want to do with a child. Leave them alone to abuse children, I dont think so.Would you be happy for a child to kill itself at 12 years of age because it was taught that it would be taken away to paradise on a spaceship that is in the tail of a comet? I would appreciate an answer here. But we are not talking here about teaching something that they MAY be right with, we are talking about teaching something that is 100% bull as being 100% true.How can you justify teaching a child that all life on Earth was wiped out 4400 years ago and the only surviviors were creatures oon a boat! How can you in good conscience teach that?By all means teach children that CERTAIN Chrsitan groups believ in a 6000 year old universe, I have actually done this on upteen occassions, granted it is always met with sniggers from the classes, but I repeat that this is a belief that some people hold and that they are entitled to their belief.This is different from teaching children that the universe is 6000 years old because a collection of ancient myths says so and all alleged contrary evidence is false.Deliberately misleading a child is abuse. If you want to call ensuring that every child is well looked after, treated as an individual and not as a piece of property,if this is what you wish to calltyranny, then yes I am a tyrant You cannot make this stuff up!!Brian.

We are in the End Times! Again But, if the government are not in touch with the child, in this regard, monitoring their education, how are they going to determine whether there is abuse or neglect going on? We can determine if a child is receiving a decent level of education, which is easy to monitor. If they are not receiving this level then they are being denied a basic human right, which, in my book is wrong.
To me, a child who reaches, say the age of thirteen, and has been taught that 2 + 2 = 5 will experience severe emotional turmoil when they discover that 2 + 2 = 4. To be told day after day after day by your parents, and other authority figures, that 2 + 2 = 5, and then suddenly to discover that your parents have been lying to you all these years CAN be very distressing, this is where, IMO, the abuse factor comes in.Keep in mind that I am talking about a hypothetical situation where the ‘worse case scenario’ is involved. I am talking about a fundy approach to the entire curriculum, teaching kids that every subject that they would study in mainstream education can be explained fully and accurately in the biblical texts. This is wilfully depriving a child of a decent quality of education, which is actually against the law in the UK, I do not know what the law is in the USA.In Scotland, I know this doesn’t apply in the USA, but it at least allows you some insight in to where I am coming from. Also, some of the Scottish laws are based on the UN’s Convention of the Child, a convention that the USA have endorsed, and will apparently be signing up to soon (allegedly), so there may be changes in education in the USA sometime in the future.However, back to Scotland, I have reams and reams of literature about education in Scotland and the laws governing it. This website condenses a lot of the information very well, and includes a lot of points that will at least allow you to see some reasons why I appear to have a strange opinion in the eyes of our American friends.The emphases are all mine. The duty of the parent It shall be the duty of the parent of every child of school age to provide efficient education for him suitable to his age, ability and aptitude either by causing him to attend a public school regularly or by other means.

​

This means:

​

If you have a school-age child, you must see that (s)he is provided with education.

​

You can do this either by sending the child to a state school or by other means.

​

In any case, the education provided must be efficient.

​

It must also be suitable to the child’s age, ability and aptitude.

​

Although s 1 of the Standards in Scotland’s Schools etc. Act 2000 affirms the right of children to be provided with school education by education authorities, this has no bearing on the right to home education. The same Act (s 60 and Schedule 2, para 3(5)) amends the 1980 Act by the addition of s 30(2). This subsection explicitly states that the right to school education is without prejudice to the choice afforded a parent by s 30(1) of the 1980 Act.

​

The role of the education authority

​

Unless you are taking your child out of a state school (see below), you don’t have to tell the education authority you are educating ‘by other means’; but once they know about you they are entitled to investigate. Usually this should just be a matter of checking up informally on your arrangements.

​

Many people educate their children at home with the full cooperation of the education authority. But sometimes conflicts develop. The authority have a duty to take action if they are ‘not satisfied’ that you are educating your ‘school age’ child properly. The formal steps they should take are laid down in s 37 41 of the 1980 Act, summarised here for reference and also in the Statutory Guidance.

​

1. They serve you with a notice giving you at least a week to provide whatever information they ask for about your arrangements. You can choose whether to do this in person (with or without the child) or in writing.

​

2. If you fail to satisfy them either that you are educating properly or that you have ‘reasonable excuse’ for not doing, they must make an ‘attendance order’. But before they do this they must consider any views you have expressed about the school you want your child to go to.

​

3. They serve you with an attendance order requiring you to send your child to the school named in it.

​

4. Once the order is served, you have two weeks to appeal to the sheriff, who may confirm, vary or annul it.

​

5. You can ask the education authority to revoke the order
because you have made alternative arrangements (including arrangements for home education). (Alternatively you can ask them to amend it by substituting another school which has agreed to accept your child.)

​

6. If they won’t do this, or if they fail to decide within a month, you can appeal to the sheriff.

​

7. If you don’t comply with the order you can be taken to court, but you won’t be guilty if you can show that you have a ‘reasonable excuse’. (Under s 44(1), whether it convicts you or not, if the court finds that there was irregular attendance without reasonable excuse it can refer the case to the local authority Reporter. See below.) There is obviously a lot more to this, and the details do get complex when you look at the full literature, as all legal papers seem to do.But, in Scotland, a child is entitled by LAW to an efficient education, and teaching that 2 + 2 = 5 is not an efficient education.So, in Scotland, the person who teaches that 2 + 2 = 5 would be required to show that they have provided suitable arrangements for the child to have access to someone who knows that 2 + 2 = 4, if they fail to do this then the Law requires the authorities to arrange for the child to attend a school. This could even mean providing a taxi or other method of transport to take the child to and from school. If the parent refuses to send the child to school, there are many penalties available for the authority to dish out. This could lead to the child being taken in to care or at least having a supervision order, it can even ultimately lead to a jail sentence for the parent in extreme cases. I would point out that it is only my own opinion that this is psychological abuse and is not the view of any authority in the UK. To continue, the authorities here would be concerned about the quality of education and not really what it was that was being taught. If you were teaching that 2 + 2 = 5, you would need to justify that to your local education authority, if you cannot, then your child is forced to go to mainstream school, or you are forced to provide an efficient education for the child. Well this is the law here in Scotland because we know that this is a perverse teaching. I don’t think this is the same thing at all. We are talking about a fundy Christian school or home school education forcing kids to accept untruths as being true. Santa Claus is not an idea that is forced on kids with any vigour, it is a playful, traditional tale, we don’t go out of our way to provide evidence for Santa Claus, nor are any of us that upset if our children don’t accept Santa as real. Fine, no problem, however, can you justify deliberately misleading a child?I have no problem with teaching YEC, I have done it myself lots of times, but I have taught it for what it is, a religious belief. Indeed, but as Faith argued, if the education of someone children is no damn business of anyone’s but the parent, how would we know if a child is being taught to pop themselves when the next comet comes along?If the education authority doesn’t ensure a decent level of education, then children are open to all sorts of psychological abuse. You could argue that the parent would still teach that a child should kill itself when the next comet appears, but if the child also has access to a mainstream education, the child can make decisions about its future. If the child fears for its future because it believes that the comet idea is crazy, then there are services there to protect the child. If the child doesn’t have a mainstream education then the comet idea will not sound crazy at all. Not at all, the problem is with teaching metaphysical beliefs as being factual, when they are not. Who would be silly enough to claim that any metaphysical belief is a FACT? Certainly no one that I know, including some fundamentalist Christians!Some people BELIEVE that Jesus rose from the dead, they cannot prove it, it is not a fact.Some people BELIEVE everything about the Noah Flood myth, this is their belief, it is not a fact.Some people KNOW that there was no Flood as described in the Bible, this is a fact based on empirical evidence and can be examined.A metaphysical belief is exactly that, beyond the physical, beyond confirmation and examination. It is a belief, and to teach a belief as a FACT is perverse. I think you are getting the wrong end of the stick. In Scotland we teach at least five different religions in mainstream schools, so I do not see how your conclusions fit.What I am saying is not that you cannot teach a child about a god because gods are supposedly not real. I am all for teaching about all religions, one of the reasons why I teach Religious Studies ( ) , it is the teaching of these things as facts that I am opposed to. I am 110% happy to teach these as BELIEFS, because that is what they are. All religions are faiths, and they are called faiths for a reason, you need to have faith in them being true. It is all about providing a decent all-round education. My scenario consisted of the entire curriculum being taught from a fundy viewpoint. For example, a history lesson about the Exodus from Egypt would consist of the Book of Exodus because there is nothing else to support it. In real history, the Exodus simply didn’t happen, the evidence against the Exodus is so over-whelming that teaching the Bible version as fact is the same as teaching 2 + 2 = 5, it is a lie. Yes, but there is no need to put up with this possibility if it can easily be avoided, or if we can cut down the odds of it happening. In Scotland we are now putting a lot of traffic calming measures in place in areas seen as accident black spots’. Now, we are all exposed to the possibility of being knocked down by a speeding car, however, the odds of this happening can be altered by preventative procedures. Yep, but the Laws of that society (in UK at least) state that the child MUST have an efficient education, this is the Law, and you can be sent to jail if you do not allow your child access to a decent level of education.Education is a basic right of everyone, parents do not own their children, they aren’t piece of property. I didn’t say to make it illegal, I said that it should be illegal to teach it as a fact when it clearly isn’t. By all means teach YEC as a belief, I have no problem whatsoever about that.I do think that there is a big difference between how residents of the UK and the USA view what they think is tolerable in a free society, maybe this is an example of an issue that we will never agree on because our stances are based on different backgrounds.I don’t know the education laws in America, maybe someone here knows if a parent is required to provide an efficient education for their children.Brian.This message has been edited by Brian, 06-24-2005 11:13 AM

HI Bobbins,Now that you have 'broken the ice' so to speak, I hope you continue to be a regular contributor at EvC.I appreciate your post because it does emphasise the different views of the public in the two countries.The way things are going up here right now I can only see the gov taking more interest in what is being taught at schools. The social inclusion policy is getting out of hand.Parents are placing more and more responsibility on to teachers nowadays, I even have colleagues who have to phone certain pupils to get them out of bed! Can you believe that? A parent will phone up the school because the child wont get out of bed, and a teacher has to go on the phone to tell the child to get up! Goodness knows where it will end.But, as parents expect more and more from the schools, especially these community schools, the gov will automatically have more responsibility about what is being taught, and how it is taught.Anyway, before I go off on one again, welcome to EvC and I look forward to many chats with you.Brian.

Hi Holmes,I have pasted your earlier reply into Word and I have just started a reply, but I have a function to attend this evening so I will need to finish the reply tomorrow, if the hangover isn't too bad But, you make a lot of good points, and maybe I have answered some in my reply to Jazz.I need to get ready now, so just to let you know that I intend to reply to your earlier message.Take care.Brian.