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Author Topic:   Miocene humans
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 41 of 89 (230835)
08-07-2005 10:48 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Percy
08-07-2005 7:35 PM


Re: fundamentalist Darwinists?
The word extraordinary is applied to a claim that contradicts a large body of quality evidence.
Here is the error in your thinking. The data does not contradict any actual evidence at all, in terms of human evolution, except perhaps the one claim of the curiously spherical balls.
But in terms of Miocene humans, there is no data this contradicts, just evolutionist conclusions about the data. Evos stitch together a picture, often times out of fraudulent claims, based on partial data while ignoring the other data, and then claim this evidence is extraordinary.
But it's not really because the only extraordinary claim is that presumptions of evos on human evolutionary paths are wrong.
There is not one single piece of data, related to human remains, that this data conflicts with. All this shows is that some of the so-called pre-human hominids were not actually early forms of humans, but either different species, or perhaps showing some of the extreme range of hominids.
Ironically, even though evos claim not accept teleology, these so-called more primitive hominid forms are considered more primitive and we more advanced due to a values judgment related to progress, that evolution is upward.
But in reality, even if one continues to accept ToE, this data would only show, assuming ToE, that the range of hominid evolution is wider than expected, and we in fact see this sort of thing with other species, getting bigger and then smaller and then bigger again.
In other words, it is perfectly reasonable to accept that man could be "advanced" and then devolve (in layman's terms), and that branches could evolve back to a more "advanced state."
In fact, that sort of change within a range is much more scientific, and more in line with the science claims of ToE, than to claim such a thing as devolution or evolution in a "progressive manner" exists.
So it could be hominids existed in basically the same form as modern man 20 million years ago, that various tribes of men "devolved", and that man has changed within a range over that time.
Or, man could be specially created by God. Or aliens could have cloned themselves with apes, for all we know.
The point is this data, except maybe the one claim as far as the spherical balls that are dated 2 billion years ago, is not contradictory with the other available actual data, at least not the claims of Miocene era men.
It merely contradicts current evolutionist interpretations of the data, and does not necessarily even contradict ToE, although it may not be as strong evidence for ToE, or may make evolutionists look rather silly to have made so many claims about man's evolution without considering that devolution evolution could well be just as likely as "progressive evolution."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Percy, posted 08-07-2005 7:35 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 46 of 89 (230934)
08-08-2005 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by nator
08-08-2005 8:54 AM


Re: fundamentalist Darwinists?
The claims are fraudulent, meaning they are not accurate. I could go into detail, but there tends to be reliance on overatements, and then sometimes a scaling back.
The overstatements are fraudulent in the sense they are an overstatement.
For example, Pakicetus was originally presented as a webbed foot semi-aquatic creature. There was absolutely no evidence for it having webbed feet, now being semi-aquatic. The only reason I can think of for depicting Pakicetus in this manner was to exagerrate and overstate the finding in an attempt to make the whale transition connection stronger.
Interestingly, although now Pakicestus is presented as a rat-like hooved creature, he is still called a cetacean despite it not sharing any of the primary qualities that identify a cetacean (whale) as a cetacean.
This kind of reminds of how evos used the term "recapitulation." It took a long time but eventually evos admitted that "ontologeny does not recapitulate phylogeny", but they still maintained the term, "recapitulation" and kept the unproven claim of a phylotypic stage and some basic, but false and misleading claims, such as humans having gill slits, or gill pouches, embryos, and they kept using the term, recapitulation.
That to me indicates a pattern of overstatement not connected to fact.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by nator, posted 08-08-2005 8:54 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Yaro, posted 08-08-2005 10:52 AM randman has replied
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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 48 of 89 (230940)
08-08-2005 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Yaro
08-08-2005 10:52 AM


Re: Wrong thread for whales
Packicetus was belived to have webfeet in 1998.
On what basis? They had no foot fossils at all. They deliberately depicted the creature as semi-aquatic and named him a Paki-whale without any real basis in fact.
This was presented in places like the 12 page propaganda spread, which I read at the time, showing these erroneous claims as facts.
It's par for the course. Evos overstate the evidence, and then sometimes scale it back, but note not all the way. They still call this creature a whale.
Imo, were critics allowed to present the arguments and data critical of evolution in the class-room, evos would be the laughing-stock of the nation. I mean evos actually have web-sites with a large, hooved, rat-like creature running across the page with the caption "the first whale."
It's farcical.
As far as religion and evolutionism, you are deeply misled, but that's a different topic. I'll just say this. There is not an area of the world that was not dominated at one time by a Christian paradigm where women are treated as equal or near equal, individuals are accorded rights considered given by God, and that people are free to choose their own religion or change religions.
What has evolutionism done? Take away ToE, and we would have all of the exact same advances in medicine, genetics, etc,....and that's because univeral common descent is not a necessary paradigm for working within these fields or even understanding evolutionary processes applicable to species in their generation. You can have micro-evolution, which no one denies, and reject the wild claims of universal common descent.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Yaro, posted 08-08-2005 10:52 AM Yaro has replied

Replies to this message:
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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 50 of 89 (230955)
08-08-2005 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Yaro
08-08-2005 11:27 AM


Re: Wrong thread for whales
Are you guys ever going to look at the evidence?
You asked why most dated 100 years ago, and the answer is that prior to evolutionism's knowledge filter, people were finding and science was willing to accept Miocene era humans.
So you were answered.
Why so many claims of Miocene era humans, including claims put forward not be Cremo?
And then once evos say it isn't possible, you guys write off such data. Looks suspicious to me.
Fits the pattern of behaviour I have noted as an interested observer.
As far as the one anamolous claims on the spherical balls, we can dismiss that for this thread as that does not relate to Miocene era humans.
Also, modern Miocene humans does not even necessarily contradict ToE, although it could perhaps. It seems to me we see species, or genera, evolve within a range, changing in one direction and changing back. So maybe the more primitive hominids are the result of "devolution" from an ancestral form more like us.
Or maybe some of these apish hominids are really just apes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Yaro, posted 08-08-2005 11:27 AM Yaro has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Yaro, posted 08-08-2005 11:50 AM randman has replied
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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 54 of 89 (231002)
08-08-2005 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Percy
08-08-2005 1:00 PM


Re: Wrong thread for whales
So evidentiary claims of Miocene human artifacts and remains, attested to by a wide body of evidence and people, is dismissed a priori.
Figures.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Percy, posted 08-08-2005 1:00 PM Percy has replied

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 56 of 89 (231008)
08-08-2005 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Yaro
08-08-2005 11:50 AM


Re: Wrong thread for whales
The difference is claims per mermaids and such did not have cooroborating data. What Cremo shows is that there was accepted by all standards, data and a lot of it, indicating Miocene human artifacts and remains.
Evolutionists never used scientific studies to discount the body of this data.
We also have accounts from other sources besides Cremo of a fairly wide body of evidence of Miocene human remains and artifacts, one linked to in the OP which mentions the museum and artifact specifically, and you can, if you want, pursue whether the fossil exists or not independently.
So I have answered you, pointed to a wide body of evidence of Miocene man, and of multiple sources. Cremo is not the only person presenting this data. He is significant, crackpot or not, because he has done extensive research compiling this data, but it's been there all along, sort of like Haeckel's frauds.
What's interesting is you guys complained that creationists and other critics don't substantiate their criticism with data, but when they do, you dismiss the data because they are the ones substantiating the data. It's fallacious and circular reasoning on your part.
Take the instance of Haeckel's drawings. Creationists drew attention to the fact they were frauds, but evos kept using them for over 100 years because no evolutionist had done a study.
Same process here. We have data showing strong evidence, it seems, of Miocene man, but the best you guys can do is smear some of the people that compiled some of the data.
What is clear is evolutionists have not and do not act objectively in considering the evidence. They never examined all of these claims and showed them to be wrong, but just began to ignore this data because it did not fit with their ideas.
Instead of developing the theory based on the data, they filter the data based on the theory, it seems.

This message is a reply to:
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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 58 of 89 (231022)
08-08-2005 1:39 PM


for all: update on claimed Miocene human skeleton
In 1812, several skeletons were found on the island of Guadeloupe. They were all pointing the same way, were not disjointed, were only partly mineralized, and a dog and implements were found with them. This implies a burial, rather than a mass death. The dog and the partial mineralization imply they are post-Columbian.
One of the skeletons, of a woman, was presented to the British Museum. It has been on and off public display ever since.
In 1983, the Australian creationist journal Ex Nihilo ran an article by W. R. Cooper. He claimed that the skeleton was found in a 25 million year old Lower Miocene deposit. He said that it showed signs of drowning in the Flood. He also claimed that it was taken off display, in Darwin's day, to conceal the evidence against Darwin's theory. The Natural History Museum curators say that they didn't move it down to the basement until 1967.
And there the matter sits. Cooper has not produced an independant opinion that his dating (to the Miocene) is correct. The skeleton has not been carbon-dated, although the Museum offered to do so for a fee.
The Miocene Human Fossil in Guadeloupe
If the skeleton is in a Miocene lime-stone deposit, which seems to be the case, that is problematic for current human origins scenarios.
It may or may not be evidence of the Flood, but if the deposits are considered millions of years old and the skeleton is dated as young, that would be evidence for YECers.
If the skeleton and deposit are both old, then that would still be problematic for current evo-scenarios, but it would just push back the start of modern man much further, probably resulting in a theory that currently esteemed "lower" hominids were devolved forms, so to speak, and that man's evolutionary history would be much longer.
Either way, it is unlikely that any data can falsify evolutionist claims, but this would create a significant change in human evo-scenarios.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 63 of 89 (231031)
08-08-2005 1:54 PM


evos refuse to investigate
Here is another example where evolutionists just dismiss the data out of hand, and then when finally getting someone to research and confirm conclusively ancient modern man, not buried intrusively, evolutionists still ignore the data, and even today make spurious claims that somehow the data was dismissed back then when in reality the scientists that studied the bones and area where they were found agreed it was indeed old.
Ragazzoni, a teacher from the Technical Institute of Brescia, found what appeared to be human remains amongst fossil shells near the area of Castenedolo in Italy during the late 1800’s. He took the remains to two geologists and inquired on whether the physical characteristics of the bones would warrant them being contemporary with the fossil shell layer (in other words, if they were buried at the same time as the layer in which the shells came from). They immediately poo-pooed the idea. The layer for which the shells are found were assigned the Astian age in the fossil layer (for the record, I do not subscribe to the geologic time scale and the assumptions which deduce such numbers).
Ragazonni threw the bones away, taking the word of the geologists that the bones were of no importance. Still, it intrigued him that there could possibly be human remains within strata thought to be so old (given an age of 1.5-4 million years old). He suggested to a friend of his that the land around Castenedolo was a good buy, and that the land itself had a plentiful resource of rich fertilizer among the soils. He informed the friend that while digging for fertilizer, he should keep a careful eye out for any human remains that might be buried there. He told him to inform him the moment they found anything out of the ordinary.
Sure enough, more bones were found in the basic vicinity of where Ragazzoni found the initial human remains. Ragazzoni, a trained geologist of his day, excavated (with the help of others) a total of four individuals over a localized expanse of the hillside. He confirmed that, undeniably, these perfectly modern human skeletons were found among the Astian clay, intermixed with fossil shells.
He then brought a trained anatomist, Professor G. Sergi from the University of Rome, into the investigation. Sergi had concluded that the remains consisted of four individuals; a woman, a man, and two children.
Both Ragazzoni and Sergi had lingering doubts as to the nature of the material within the Astian layer. They suspected, like the previous two geologists, that these human remains might have been buried in the Astian layer well after it had been laid down (this is what is known as an intrusive burial). IF this had been the case, the stratigraphy of the Astian soil, as well as the several layers of soil above it (all colored differently from the Astian) would have been disturbed, intermixed, with definite borders to the grave walls and the like.
However, Ragazzoni concluded that these skeletons were not an intrusive burial. They were buried at the same time that the Astian layer was layed down (1.5-4 million years according to the evolutionary timescale). Sergi agreed with this statement, and both he and Ragazzoni never recanted their initial findings to my knowledge.
According to Ragazzoni (1880, p.123); The stratum of blue clay (Astian layer), which is over 1 meter (3 feet) thick, has preserved its uniform stratification, and does not show any sign of disturbance. In accordance with the judgment of the excavator himself, who is not preoccupied with any preconceived ideas, the skeleton was very likely deposited in a kind of marine mud and not buried at a later time, for in this case one would have been able to detect traces of the overlying yellow sand and the iron-red clay called feretto, which forms the top part of the hill, and which by successive floodings has washed down and covered the lower formations of conglomerate and sand that cover the shelly Subappenine blue clays.
http://www.calarts.edu/~shockley/castenedolo.html

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 65 of 89 (231039)
08-08-2005 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Yaro
08-08-2005 1:49 PM


Re: for all: update on claimed Miocene human skeleton
So... some people DIG and burry some other people in a 25 million year old limestone deposit, and this somehow means those people are 25 million years old?
Well, first off, intrusive burial would show evidence in the soil above the skeleton fossils, right?
I see no one showing that, but rather claiming it MUST BE, just has to be, but if that's the case, wouldn't there be differences in the soil above the skeleton, evidence of intrusion.
This was not shown with the Italian find, for example.
What appears to me is that prior to evolutionists being close-minded about finding ancient human remains, quite a few were found, but ever since they adopted the no ancient human stance, they have not properly inviestigated the claims and did not go back and review all of the existing data to see if the claims of ancient men were correct.
They ran with relatively few fossils and ignored a large body of evidence indicating ancient man.
Part of why they may have done this is the "progress" mentality that evolutionists tended to think in. Evos do say that evolution is not progressive, not upwards, but just is change.
But back in the early days of evolutionism, the idea of progress was strong and this ideology may have caused evolutionists to erroneously assume that baser, "devolved" forms of ancient humans could only have been precursors to modern humans, and not considered that, even within ToE, they do not rule out that modern man existed a long time prior and these forms devolved from modern man.
The fact is evos developed very dogmatic beliefs based on paltry levels of evidence and ignoring the evidence for ancient man.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Yaro, posted 08-08-2005 1:49 PM Yaro has replied

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 78 of 89 (231134)
08-08-2005 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by nator
08-08-2005 2:38 PM


Re: is fraud the same asinaccuracy?
I already explained that what I meant was the data was fraudulent in the sense of it being wrong. I cannot judge the motives of evolutionists so I have no way to tell if they somehow knew the data did not show webbed feet or not, and things like that.
In fact, I don't think evolutionists are necessarily aware that they rely on gross overstatements, but maybe that's another thread.
As far as papers, most of the public does not read academic journals.
Evolutionists tend to present their findings to the public via popular magazines such as National Geographic which did present the webbed feet, as I have shown already several times but you ignore, TV shows such as PBS specials, textbooks, articles, etc,...
So, imo, these are the areas of primary concern since these are the areas evos use to argue their case to the public, and where such gross overstatements, by evolutionists mind you, take place.
The simple fact is these media and educational sources are created by evolutionists, and they are the principal means to showing to the public and student that evolutionist findings are correct.
Imo, presenting Pakicetus as a whale is passing off an absurd claim. If evos want to say it is precursor to the whale, fine, but they tend to overstate their case continually, and so insist on classifying the rat-like creature as a whale.
Considering the manner in which evos have operated, claiming human gill slits for example, I consider their dismissal, of any claims of Miocene human artifacts and remains, as suspect and unreliable.
On the other hand, there needs to be some work into some of these areas such as in Guadelope to determine if more human remains are there, and if they were buried or not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by nator, posted 08-08-2005 2:38 PM nator has replied

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 81 of 89 (231150)
08-08-2005 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Yaro
08-08-2005 6:29 PM


Re: is fraud the same asinaccuracy?
He doesn't look like and is not a whale.
The fact evos claim he is a whale is somewhat farcical, and imo, shows a level of desperation to cling to just about potential evidence for transitionals and herald it as truth, and one reason is the absence of the predicted fossilized transitionals.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Yaro, posted 08-08-2005 6:29 PM Yaro has replied

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