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Author Topic:   Miocene humans
randman 
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Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 1 of 89 (230375)
08-06-2005 1:31 AM


Awhile back on one of these threads, someone suggested ToE could be falsified if we found very old human remains or artifacts, such as millions of years in the past.
That made me wonder if perhaps this hasn't already occurred, and like much of the story of evolution, the data has been twisted to make it fit into evolutionary paradigms, and sure enough, we see human artifacts and remains in the mid Miocene period.
In 1872, at the International Congress of Prehistoric Anthropology and Archaeology meeting in Brussels, Ribeiro gave another report on his discoveries and displayed more specimens, mostly pointed flakes. A. W. Franks, Conservator of National Antiquities and Ethnography at the British Museum, stated that some of the specimens were the product of intentional work.
Ribeiro's Miocene flints made an impressive showing, but remained controversial. At the Paris Exposition of 1878, Ribeiro displayed specimens of Tertiary flint tools in the gallery of anthropological science. De Mortillet visited Ribeiro's exhibit and, in the course of examining the specimens carefully, decided that they had indubitable signs of human work.
De Mortillet, along with his friend and colleague Emile Cartailhac, enthusiastically brought other archaeologists to see Ribeiro's specimens, and they were all of the same opinion: the flints were definitely made by humans. Cartailhac then photographed the specimens, and de Mortillet later presented pictures in his Muse Prhistorique (G. and A. de Mortillet, 1881).
De Mortillet (1883:99) wrote: "The intentional work is very well established, not only by the general shape, which can be deceptive, but much more conclusively by the presence of clearly evident striking platforms and strongly developed bulbs of percussion.
....
Miocene flint tools are reported from Puy de Boudieu, near Aurillac, in the department of Cantal in the Massif Central region of France (Verworn, 1905). The flint implements were found in layers of fluviatile sands, stones and eroded chalk, along with fossils of a typical Miocene fauna, including Dinotherium giganteum, Mastodon longirostris, Rhinocerus schleiermacheri and Hipparion gracile. The implement-bearing layers were covered with basalt flows (Verworn, 1905:17).
Verworn was very cautious in identifying the objects he found as objects manufactured by humans. Summarising his methodology, Verworn (1905:29) said:
"Suppose I find in an interglacial stone bed a flint that bears a clear bulb of percussion, but no other symptoms of intentional work. In that case, I would be doubtful as to whether or not I had before me an object of human manufacture. But suppose I find there a flint which on one side shows all the typical signs of percussion, and which on the other side shows the negative impressions of two, three, four or more flakes removed by blows in the same direction. Furthermore, let us suppose one edge of the piece shows numerous successive small parallel flakes removed, all running in the same direction, and all, without exception, located on the same side of the edge. Let us suppose that all the other edges are sharp, without a trace of impact or rolling. Then I can say with complete certainty: it is an implement of human manufacture."
Page not found - Nexus Magazine
Thus the stone tools he found in them were evidence for a human presence in the Tertiary of Portugal. Most of his discoveries occurred in formations of lower Miocene age, which would make them about 20 million years old. For decades, his discoveries attracted considerable and often favorable attention in scientific circles. But the announcement of the discovery of Java man in the 1890s changed things. Java man was from the earliest Quaternary, and was accompanied by no stone tools. From that point on, most scientists thought it impossible that makers of stone tools existed in the Tertiary, and Ribeiro's discoveries slid into oblivion. Having only read about them in his reports, it was quite an experience, this July, to go into the old Museum of Geology in Lisbon, and handle the actual artifacts. They were hidden away in the storage cabinets, no longer displayed to the public.
When I looked at the collections, I saw that some of them had some interesting labels. Originally classified by Ribeiro as Miocene or Pliocene, the new labels, written in the early 20th century, assigned the objects to accepted stone tool industries of the middle and late Pleistocene. At that time, the objects were apparently still on display. But some time after that they were removed from display. When I was at the museum, the director said he would like to put the objects on display once more. I take that as a sign of progress. It was also interesting to touch and read Ribeiro's original field notes and maps. And finally, it was interesting to retrace his steps to some of the sites where he found his Miocene artifacts. The paper I gave on Ribeiro's discoveries was well received at the European Association of Archeologists annual meeting in Lisbon this September. Ribeiro must have felt something special when he took the artifacts out of the ground, where they had lain buried for millions of years. And I felt something special as I took them out of the scientific oblivion, in which they had lain for many decades.
flash3
In the basement of the British Museum of Natural History there is a two-ton slab of limestone which was quarried from the Grande Terre deposits on the Caribbean island of Guadeloupe, in 1812. The rock is dated by evolutionists as being Lower Miocene. The slab clearly contains the skeletal remains of a female human being who died a violent death. She would have stood about 5 feet 2 inches high.
The limestone is harder than statuary marble, and it enveloped the body while the sediment was still in a liquid state, prior to hardening into rock. The body was buried suddenly and catastrophically based upon the position of the bones. The organic material in the rock proves that the body had not decayed prior to burial. Using evolutionary time scales this human skeleton would be dated as 25 million years old! That would be 21 million years earlier than any supposed findings of pre-humans in East Central Africa. (Kinda like the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing.)
This evidence was not hidden at first. During the early nineteenth century it was openly displayed in England as a scientific curiosity and many other such remains were claimed to have been found on the island. Once Darwinianism became established in academic circles, however, the specimen was quietly removed to the basement of the Museum where its last public viewing was in the 1930s. (The last geological survey of the island that mentions the presence of human remains in these Lower Miocene deposits, is that of Spencer, 1901.)
The page you requested cannot be found!
This message has been edited by randman, 08-06-2005 01:34 AM

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randman 
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Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 8 of 89 (230498)
08-06-2005 4:06 PM


the book Nexus quotes is well-attested to
Nexus is just repeating a different source, Michael A. Cremo, and he is not some quack. I suggest some of you study up on the subject before you bash something you do not understand.
Part of the problem with using the internet is that much of real data is not available in copy and past mode. It is written in books, and where you find the quotes are often in web-sites that are less than desirable, as in this case, but that does not change the source material, which one would have to buy and painstakingly retype to reproduce here.
Are any of you willing to tackle the claims, the actual data, shown in the quotes?
thought so

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randman 
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Message 10 of 89 (230509)
08-06-2005 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Yaro
08-06-2005 4:12 PM


Re: Michael A. Cremo
That article is just a smear. He does not appear, for instance, to be a creationist, but if he was, so what?
Moreover, the evidence he cites was well-established, peer-reviewed, and to this date, never been properly refuted. Evolutionists, as I have certainly noticed, just decided to dismiss the claims because of the discovery of Java man and the fact this data did not fit well with their scenarios.
Also, I wouldn't count on the fact he believes in Atlantis, but there was a time when, gasp, some dared to believe in Troy!
This message has been edited by randman, 08-06-2005 04:32 PM

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randman 
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Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 12 of 89 (230516)
08-06-2005 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Yaro
08-06-2005 4:12 PM


Re: Michael A. Cremo
Ok, awesome. Some honesty from an evolutionist! From your link,
"The problem is, there's so much evidence against it," said Eugenie Scott, physical anthropologist and director of the National Center for Science Education, a nonprofit organization that defends teaching evolution in public schools. "For his view to be right would require answers that he can't provide."
This is the central problem with evolutionists. They need to have an answer, and their nearly religious need for an answer drives them to make things fit when they don't.
Take this example. He doesn't say Cremo's data is wrong. He admits the real problem is it doesn't fit, that there is no good answer from his perspective on why the data is what it is, and that's the real problem with evolutionists.
So instead of doing what is reasonable and admitting this data is real, does not fit with ToE or current scenarios, and admitting the obvious truth, which is from a scientific persepective:
WE DON'T KNOW.
But they can't do that. So they go the other route and with selective use of evidence, ignoring all sorts of evidence against it, evolutionists ply their scenarious to each other and the public, and demonize the character, integrity and intelligence of their critics.
That's why I think of evolutionism as a cult.
You even see it here. One time in a debate, AdminNed obnoxiously insisted I say what I think happened, what was my theory, and just could not seem to accept the honest answer that, imo, we don't know. It's better to say we don't know than to insist on calling a lie the truth or calling it factual.
Science does not need an alternative theory to know the current one is wrong. That's a deep fallacy with evolutionists.
Evolutionists need to own up to the weaknesses in their models and theories. They don't have to abandon evolution altogether, just return it to the realm of good science.
If you find data that disproves your model, but is unexplainable, don't just sweep it under the rug. Admit a reworking is necessary, and before you have another good hypothesis, admit the data is a problem.
Evolutionists appear to do the opposite, imo.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 13 of 89 (230519)
08-06-2005 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by CK
08-06-2005 4:39 PM


Re: Michael A. Cremo
Uh, so evolutionists still to this day rely on their own twisting of Von Baer's claims, from the mid-1800s, in maintaining the claim of a phylotypic stage, and yet you guys think you have a leg to stand on here?
When was the geologic column developed?
Fact is there is every reason, considering the numbers of corroborating scientists of the time, to believe these artifacts were indeed found in the Miocene period.
The reason, btw, the author brings up these pre-Java man artifacts is to show how mainstream evolutionists twist the evidence, which we see all the time, and how they choose to selectively deny evidence that does not fit with evolutionary theory.
That's why, btw, it took over 100 years to get evolutionists to quit using Haeckel's drawings, which were gross fakes. They play so loose with the rules on the data, with such a strong bias, that even obvious fakes which interested observers such as myself, could find out about, they were largely unaware of or refused to accept, and kept the fakes in their textbooks.
Same with excessive depictions of Neanderthals as ape-like. We've known since the 50s that was not the case, but it's only been the last few years evolutionists in teaching evolution have begun to depict Neanderthal more accurately.
Same with Pakicetus. Evos came out with a semi-aquatic creature 8 years ago, complete with webbed feet, and did so with great fanfare.
Well, now the real picture emerges and yet evos still want to call this creature a "whale" which is absurd.
So it is important to view all of the data, including data which indidentally others besides Cremo bring up, that show Miocene human remains and artifacts. Cremo, by the way, is getting fanfare because he provided so much documentation, which no one has yet to refute, in his book. Crackpot or not (Darwin was probably a crackpot too), his data seems to be unassailable.

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randman 
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Posts: 6367
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Message 15 of 89 (230528)
08-06-2005 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Yaro
08-06-2005 5:06 PM


Re: An aside
No one ever made that claim either.
But nice try to divert the thread from the data.

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randman 
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Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 18 of 89 (230582)
08-06-2005 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Yaro
08-06-2005 6:26 PM


Re: Cremo Of The Crapo
Much more than most evos, I dare say.
Thus far, I cannot find any factual errors in his work.

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randman 
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Posts: 6367
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Message 19 of 89 (230585)
08-06-2005 8:15 PM


here's a claim
Maybe some evos here could practice showing their explanations for the data as superiour. This is claim made elsewhere, and I am sure evos have an explanation they feel is superiour.
This could be a useful exercise turning the thread to the data instead of specious arguments trying to dismiss someone out of hand. Keep in mind that I have chosen a claim that is common, that evos, I believe, claim to be able to easily dismiss.
Among the oldest anomalies you report are the Laetoli footprints, discovered by Mary Leakey. These footprints were found in Tanzania in 1979. How old are these footprints and what is so anomalous about them? Is there any other evidence for anatomically modern humans at this same time?
The Laetoli footprints were found in layers of solidified volcanic ash, dated by the potassium-argon method as being about 3.7 million years old, so I would not call them one of the oldest. There are footprints and even shoe prints that go much further back in time than that. For example, the shoe print found by William Meister near Antelope Springs, Utah, goes back about 500 million years. The Laetoli footprints are still quite interesting. According to Mary Leakey, and other scientists, the footprints are exactly like those of modern human beings. This is unusual, because according to most scientists today, human beings capable of making these footprints did not come into existence until about 100,000 years ago. Mary Leakey did not believe, of course, that humans of our type existed 3.7 million years ago in Africa.
So how did she explain the footprints?
She and others proposed that there must have existed at that time some kind of hominid, some kind of ape-man, who had feet exactly like ours. That is possible. Unfortunately, there is no physical evidence to support that idea. We have many hominid skeletons from that period, and none of them have feet exactly like modern human feet. Their feet are all more or less apelike, with toes longer than modern human toes, and a first toe that can extend out to the side, like a human thumb. At present the only creature known to science with a foot exactly like that of a modern human being is a modern human being. So I would say that Mary Leakey discovered evidence that anatomically modern humans existed about 3.7 million years ago in Africa. Of course, someone might say that it would be better if we had anatomically modern human skeletons of that age. And such things do exist. For example, the Italian geologist Giuseppe Ragazzoni discovered anatomically modern human skeletal remains in Pliocene formations at a place called Castenedolo in northern Italy. The Pliocene goes from about 2 million years ago to 5 million years ago. And there are other such discoveries from other parts of the world.
I'm particularly intrigued by the bola stones of Olduvai Gorge and Argentina. What do these stones tell us, that is, what were they used for and how are they incompatible with the current Darwinian paradigm of human evolution?
Bola stones are stones that have been artificially rounded, and which many times also have a groove carved around the middle. The rounded, grooved stones are tied together with a thong, usually of leather. The result is the bola, a weapon that can be used to capture birds and animals. When thrown, the stone balls cause the thong to wrap tightly around the legs of the bird or animal, thus bringing it down. According to archeologists, bolas are a weapon made and used only by anatomically modern humans, humans of our kind. So Louis Leakey found bola stones in the lower levels of Olduvai Gorge, which go back to the Pliocene periods (2-5 million years). Leakey also found there a bone needle, which he believed was used for sewing leather. At Miramar, in Argentina, the Argentine archeologist Carlos Ameghino reported finding bola stones in undisturbed Pliocene formations, about 3 million years old. In the same layer, he also discovered the bone of an extinct South American mammal with a flint arrowhead embedded in it. Still later, another researcher found a partial human jaw in the same formation. According to the current Darwinian theory of human evolution, humans capable of making bola stones and arrowheads and bone needles did not exist until between 100,000 and 150,000 years ago.
http://www.biped.info/articles/cremo.html

  
randman 
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Message 20 of 89 (230586)
08-06-2005 8:20 PM


fundamentalist Darwinists?
Apparently, some Darwinists have given this "crackpot" a warm reception and admitted his data is impressive. The fundies (Darwinian fundies) just dismiss it with a waive of the hand, and don't address any of the data.
To be fair, he also states fundamentalist Christians have not been very receptive either.
The reaction you received from the scientific community when Forbidden Archeology was published was incredible enough to warrant the publication of your book, Forbidden Archeology's Impact. How would you characterize the response?
The response was varied, because the scientific community is not monolithic. There is one group within the scientific community that I call the fundamentalist Darwinists. These are scientists who take Darwinism as an ideology to be defended at all costs. They are attached to Darwinism for reasons that are not really scientific. Their reaction was to reject my work without really addressing any of the evidence. For example, Richard Leakey said Forbidden Archeology was "pure humbug." But he did not discuss any of the facts. However, there are others within the scientific community who accept the Darwinist theory of human evolution for reasons that are more or less scientific. They are at least willing to hear alternative ideas and discuss evidence. From members of this group I have gotten invitations to speak at scientific institutions like the Royal Institution of London and the Russian Academy of Sciences, and at professional conferences organized by groups such as the World Archeological Congress and the European Association of Archeologists.
Some of the papers I have presented at these conferences have been published in the official proceedings of these conferences. Scientists from this more open-minded group have also reviewed my books in the professional journals of archeology, anthropology and the history of science. For example, noted historian of science David Oldroyd and his coauthor Jo Wodak said about Forbidden Archeology in Social Studies of Science that the book makes a valuable contribution to the literature on paleoanthropology for two reasons. First, the book goes into the evidence in greater depth than any other book they were familiar with, and second, the book raised important questions about the nature of scientific truth claims, particularly in regard to human evolution. Among this more open-minded group, there are some scientists who have actually come to agree with my conclusions.
Were you surprised by the reaction from the Darwinist camp?
As I said, there are two kinds of Darwinists. The first is the fundamentalist type. I was not surprised by their sneering kind of negative reaction. I anticipated that, and indeed, I used some of their more strident statements to get more attention for my work, both within the scientific world and among the general public. I was rather pleasantly surprised by the willingness of the more open-minded Darwinists to give me platforms to present my views at scientific societies, scientific conferences, and science departments at universities around the world. I was also pleasantly surprised by the amount of attention they gave to my work in book reviews in their professional literature.
http://www.biped.info/articles/cremo.html

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 24 of 89 (230707)
08-07-2005 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Yaro
08-06-2005 8:59 PM


Re: fundamentalist Darwinists?
Talkorigins is like MoveOn.org or the Democratic Underground. It's so off-base, imo, that it's not even funny, a total attack and propaganda site.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 25 of 89 (230708)
08-07-2005 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by wj
08-07-2005 7:08 AM


Re: Forbidden archaeology review
Well, the fact Cremo mentions artifacts not dug up by amateurs blows that critique right out of the water.

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randman 
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Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 26 of 89 (230710)
08-07-2005 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Percy
08-07-2005 8:43 AM


Re: fundamentalist Darwinists?
Percy, I have only a few minutes before I've got to go, but wanted to respond to your question.
I think the fact he has been invited, and well-received, to speak at scientific conferences says a lot. It's true that that alone does not verify his credentials or anything, but by all accounts he and the other writer have compiled an impressive amount of data, not easily dismissed, and some of it extremely well-documented by the peer-review process at the time.
But it's not like I've checked into all of this myself. It just appears his work is of a high degree of scholarship, and his detractors are taking potshots at the guy because he belongs to a weird religion.
I'd like to see evos take on the evidence and data, and too often what Cremo says about the process does seem to be true, or at least it has appeared that way to me. It's almost like some evolutionists are in a defend at all costs mode.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 29 of 89 (230745)
08-07-2005 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Yaro
08-07-2005 3:03 PM


Re: fundamentalist Darwinists?
Yaro, you ought to read the stuff you link to sometimes.
Cremo and Thompson are quite right about the extreme conservatism of many archaeologists and physical anthropologists. While an undergraduate at a prominent southwestern university, I participated in classroom discussions about the claims for a very early occupation at the Timlin site (in New York) which had just been announced. The professor surprised me when she stated flatly that, if the dates were correct, then it was "obviously not a site." This dismissal of the possibility of such an ancient site, without an examination of the data or even a careful reading of the published claim, is dogmatism of the sort rightfully decried by Cremo and Thompson. George Carter, the late Thomas Lee, and Virginia Steene-McIntyre are among those whose claims for very early humans in America have been met with unfortunate ad hominem attacks by some conservative archaeologists; but, regardless of how shamefully these scholars were treated, the fact remains that their claims have not been supported by sufficiently compelling evidence. Cremo and Thompson are wrong, however, when they condemn scientists for demanding "higher levels of proof for anomalous finds than for evidence that fits within the established ideas about human evolution" (p. 49). It is axiomatic that extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence.
Hidden History, Hidden Agenda
In other words, there is indeed factual evidence of ancient sites of human existence. Cremo and Thompson are correct, but the writer, despite witnessing first-hand the scientific bigotry excluding honest apprisal of such data, nevertheless defends mainstream evolutionist dogmatism by admitting "extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence", which seems to me another way of saying exactlt what Cremo and Thompson say, that there is a "knowledge filter" due to the assumptions of evolutionists which causes them to dismiss claims that don't fit their paradigm (because they are extraordinary).
One wonders then, after reading this, what sort of extraordinary evidence would be acceptable, or even could theoritically be acceptable? If ancient sites, clearly visible in strata considered to be millions of years old, are not extraordinary evidence, then it may well be there is no way to falsify evolutionary models of human origins because the evidence will just be denied and swept under the rug.
Yaro, contrary to what you claim, reading your link with an open-mind, causes one to think Cremo is actually on-track, and his claims credible, considering the fact the writer admits, in a backhanded way, to the most basic claims of Cremo and Thompson, even while denying they have a proper understanding.
Go back and read the link, as if you were not predisposed to reject the evidence, and then tell me honestly what you think.
For example, the writer makes the same kind of overstepping analysis he claims Cremo and Thompson do. He lays out some, on the surface at least, fairly powerful arguments blasting some of, and I repeat some of, Cremo's work, but then he seems to run out of ammo, and makes this comment.
Cremo and Thompson discuss the three to four million year old fossilized footprints discovered at Laetoli, and note that scholars have observed "close similarities with the anatomy of the feet of modern humans" (p. 262). Cremo and Thompson conclude that these footprints actually are the tracks of anatomically modern humans, but they offer no explanation for why these individuals were not wearing the shoes which supposedly had been invented more than 296 million years earlier.
Obviously he is stretching matters. Just because shoes were invented theoritically is no justification for demanding a foot-print be a shoe print, especially if it were deep mud or something.
What an absurdity! My wife, kids, and I love to go barefoot in the summer, and it is well known that just a few decades ago, people in some areas didn't have that many shoes.
The writer betrays his over-reaching prejudice in his criticism, and imo, therefore provides the objective reader good reason to consider that Cremo and Thompson's claims have some merit. Keep in mind just one instance of human remains and artifacts from many millions of years ago is falsification of ToE claims on human origins.
I don't doubt the researchers have some claims, considering the number of them, that are incorrect. They appeared to have compiled quite a list, but at the same time, both the quality and numbers suggest evolutionists have been remiss, and are dismissing data that does not fit well with their theory, and rather than adjust the theory, they adjust the data.
This message has been edited by randman, 08-07-2005 05:37 PM

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randman 
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Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 30 of 89 (230750)
08-07-2005 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Yaro
08-07-2005 3:01 PM


Re: fundamentalist Darwinists?
Yaro, what he is showing is that prior to the "knowledge filter" of evolutionism which dismisses all data of ancient human origins, it was quite common to find remains dated from millions of years ago, and though he lists some finds, to illustrate the magnitude of his point, that are not as well-researched and determined, he also lists finds by very credible scientists and researched and verified by scientists at the time.
He also pin-points the exact time such data began to be dismissed, and it has to do with the rise of evolutionism and the discovery of Java man. In doing so, he convincingly, it appears, demonstrates that the data was never refuted but simply filtered out because it did not fit into prevailing paradigms.
The likely conclusion is that the data is right, and the paradigm is wrong, but evolutionists don't like to deal with this data because they have yet to develop a paradigm to explain ancient humans.
In a way, this reminds me of the concept of Pangea or a single land mass. As a very young child, it seemed obvious to me that the continents were once joined, especially Africa and Americas, but despite a lot of evidence, scientists erroneously scoffed at such ideas.
The claim is they did so justifiably because until the discovery of plate tectonics, they had no mechanism or theory as to why.
But this begs the question? If scientists are in the habit of dismissing data until it can be fully explained, and asserting a false claim inconsistent with that data, then to my mind, this casts great doubt on the claims of scientists in natural earth areas.
The thinking person would do well, imo, to consider that it appears evos are in the habit of filtering out data, maintaining false claims, just because they have yet to find a better one, and they call that real science.
If that's real science, then we should all treat such scientific claims as highly dubious, and reject the dogmatism of evos as grossly unsubstantiated.
Would it not be better to admit to all of the data, and admit no paradigm fully fits the data as of yet and that more research, testing, and exploration is in order?
And isn't the dogmatism of evos out of place with factual objectivity?

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 Message 27 by Yaro, posted 08-07-2005 3:01 PM Yaro has replied

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days)
Posts: 6367
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Message 32 of 89 (230756)
08-07-2005 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Percy
08-07-2005 6:11 PM


Re: fundamentalist Darwinists?
In order for Cremo to be right, most of what we currently know in science has to be wrong.
No, not at all. Nothing in physics, medicine, genetics, non-evo biology, zoology, etc,...nothing in chemistry or most any other field would be wrong, just evo claims on how humans arrived.
That's it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Percy, posted 08-07-2005 6:11 PM Percy has replied

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 Message 39 by Yaro, posted 08-07-2005 7:43 PM randman has not replied
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