Hyper evolution in the bible

dreams and hallucinations ≠ evidence.

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אָרַח

the "≠ evidence" part.you have no evidence. you don't even have the textual support of the bible. why should i just believe in some crap you made up?

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אָרַח

if i find her, i'll give her back her speck-tacles, and make her a sandwich.

i mean, long-dead thread that's basically your personal soapbox for your crackpot ideas, and a newbie who bumps it asking to know more? kinda suspicious. prove it. arguments from incredulity don't work. period. not even with the bible. there's a lot of incredible stuff that happens, and as i've pointed out, LONG after your separation. prove it. prove it. we've shown that long lifes happen in the bible after your split.apply this logic to the rest your post. it's not even worth my time to go through it and "prove it" for every unsupported and wild assertion that just plain reaks of biblical ignorance.

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אָרַח

god then limits human lifespan to 120 years. simple, btw, is misreading this verse too.of course, after that decree, the lifespans go on in the 200-year range. in fact, he says the "split" happened during peleg's lifetime, but the next two generations of peleg's sons STILL live longer than normal. at least one is 200+. the division of the world that verse refers to is the tower of babel, not his merged world. but that's not exactly what he's arguing. god is continually less and less present as biblical chronology goes on. at no point is there a SUDDEN shift in god's presence, other than possibly the exile. and god certainly does not need a merged world to act.if we want to look at actual divisions, look at the creation event. heavne divides the water -- and is structurally separate from earth. at no point are they ever one and the same, not even in revelation.

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אָרַח

a strawman, and a bad one. the first word of the definition of evolution is "change." the evo assumption is change. religion in general as been very conservative, and against changes itself. the bible does not indicate drastic change in physical laws or god's rules, just in the conditions of people. being kicked out of eden is a sudden change. the confusion of babel is a sudden change. the exodus is a relatively sudden change. the exile is a sudden change -- but never does god redefine the physical universe.the closest we have is in genesis 6. god sets a limit on human lifespan, and uncreates and recreates the earth. humans are also now allowed to eat meat, too. but that's really about it.it never says that the world was a spiritual place and now it's not. there's lots of spiritual stuff going on in the nt. simple is forced to support his idea with an ad-hoc explanation of localized spiritual intervention. it doesn't hold up.

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אָרַח

change occurs over time. remove time as something we move through, change becomes irrelevant.

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אָרַח

that's the point, simple. the spiritual continues LONG after you say it stops. not.according.to.the.bible.http://EvC Forum: Hyper evolution in the biblepeleg lives 239 years. peleg's son lives 239 years as well. peleg's grandson lives 230 years. peleg's great grandson lives 148 years. the first person in peleg's line to come within the normal lifespan is his great, great grandson tehor, at 70 years. the span between peleg's birth and tehor's birth is 121 years (not 120, i might add). after tehor's birth, his father lives another 119 years (outliving his son by 49 years).

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Gen 5:32 And Noah was five hundred years old: and Noah begat Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

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Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also [is] flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

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Gen 6:10 And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

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Gen 7:6 And Noah [was] six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth.

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there's a bit of descrepency here, of about two years. i'll be generous, and give you those two years. it seems it takes noah about 100 years to build that ark, during which shem grows up to be about 98. i'll use the 98, not 100. cause i'm nice. so, from the time of the proclamation of the limited lifespace (120 years), it's at least 98 years until the flood.

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Gen 11:10 These [are] the generations of Shem: Shem [was] an hundred years old, and begat Arphaxad two years after the flood:

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flood (98) + 2 = 100.

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Gen 11:12 And Arphaxad lived five and thirty years, and begat Salah:

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100 + 35 = 135

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Gen 11:14 And Salah lived thirty years, and begat Eber:

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135 + 30 = 165

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Gen 11:16 And Eber lived four and thirty years, and begat Peleg:

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165 + 34 = 199. your date for the split (still not 120)

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Gen 11:18 And Peleg lived thirty years, and begat Reu:

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199 + 30 = 229

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Gen 11:20 And Reu lived two and thirty years, and begat Serug:

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299 + 32 = 261

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Gen 11:22 And Serug lived thirty years, and begat Nahor:

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261 + 30 = 291

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Gen 11:24 And Nahor lived nine and twenty years, and begat Terah:

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291 + 29 = 320. so, from the flood, it's 320 before the BIRTH of the first guy with a "normal" lifespan. or, if you'd like, 390 before the first normal death. that's the MINIMUM figure. not 120. you're wrong, qed.of course, just to fould you up even more, we all know who terah's son is, right?

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Gen 25:7 And these [are] the days of the years of Abraham's life which he lived, an hundred threescore and fifteen years.

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that's 145 years.

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Gen 35:28 And the days of Isaac were an hundred and fourscore years.

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that's 180 years.

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Gen 47:28 And Jacob lived in the land of Egypt seventeen years: so the whole age of Jacob was an hundred forty and seven years.

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147 years. still not normal!

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Gen 50:26 So Joseph died, [being] an hundred and ten years old: and they embalmed him, and he was put in a coffin in Egypt.

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hmm, getting closer. in other word, terah was a fluke. all of the people in the book of genesis seem to have longer-than-normal lifespans. hwy is peleg singled out? his next two generations live almost exactly as long as he did, and there is NO logical way to apply that 120 years verse to peleg, who was born at least 199 years after that proclamation.so where, pray tell, are these shorter lifespans? well, there IS a pretty significant drop in lifespan from eber to peleg (-48%). but there's a -52% difference between nahor and terah. not to mention a -36% between noah and shem and a -35% difference between serug and nahor. so it's not even the most significant drop. if we remove terah as a statistical fluke, it is a pretty significant decline, but not that much out of the curve of the steady decline of genesis's patriarchal lifespans, starting at noah, which drop 350 years, skips a few generations, drops 150, skips a few, drops 200 (peleg), skips a few, drops 100, and then stays about the same.now, you may have caught something here. quantitatively, peleg's lifespan's shortening is not even the biggest. shem's is. all the people before shem lived 950 some years. shem only lived 600.so let's review.

• peleg's difference in lifespan was not statistically the most significant
• peleg's difference in lifespan was not quantitatively the biggest
• peleg was not even born 120 years after god's "120 year" decree.

in other words, not one of your points lines up.This message has been edited by arachnophilia, 08-23-2005 01:17 AM

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אָרַח

ahem. no. in message 219 of this very thread, you write:

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So we have a set time before something happens, 120 years. Most have taken this to be the time till the flood came, hence, many say that Noah took 120 years to build the ark. Fine, this was my opinion as well. However, it seems more reasonable to take it as the time God set till the split! Peleg was born 101 years after the flood

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interestingly enough, you cite the same resources. i am not arguing a strawman, i am arguing what you, yourself said: that it was 120 years from the proclamation to split. incidently, peleg was born 101 years after the flood. but at least 199 years after the proclamation. if it were 120 years from proclamation to the flood (a MUCH better reading) then it doesn't matter, and this whole 120 years to peleg thing is moot. the decline is more drawn out. there is no point of splitting. whoa there! ad-hoc. show me something in the bible that has to do with radioactive decay or genetics. actually, there is something i can say to it.

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Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

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Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

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do you really think god has abandoned us? do you think we are separated from our god? it's times like this i really wish the book of thomas were actually in the bible:

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3 Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is within you and it is outside you.

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what you're basically saying is that natural explanation don't work. that's a tautology, and tautologies are logically meaningless. god is supernatural. duh.of COURSE there's something more at play here -- it's called "god." you either believe, or you don't. trying to justify something that is inherently supernatural with a naturalistic explanation is just stupid. why do you need this merged reality? can't you just accept that "god did it" like every other creationist? uh.you ever thought of trying out for olympic gymnastics?This message has been edited by arachnophilia, 08-23-2005 02:06 AM

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אָרַח

alright. here's god affecting something HUGE post "split."

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Jos 10:13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. [Is] not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.

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the sun and the moon stood still. if you wanna interpolate this into our modern understand of the solar system, the earth stopped rotating, and probably stopped revolving around the sun too. the moon halted it's orbit as well.a flood is cake compared to stopping the motions of the heavens. and this is well after your split.can we stop this now? are you satisfied that you're actually wrong? or do you have some other ad-hoc explanation for this you'd liek to add? that's a pretty big thing, you know. not local. not a little pool. WHOLE FREAKING PLANETS.what is size to god?This message has been edited by arachnophilia, 08-23-2005 01:58 AM

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אָרַח

simple!spiritual was merged with the physical!anything else is a double standard. listen, i don't even need to address this. it's pretty obvious that you're just making stuff up as you go along. i mean, a bunch of water indicates that a spiritual plane is merged with the physical, but stopping the motions of the heavens does not? come on, simple! nor do they record the flood. nor is god limited (or kept away) but your supposed split. yes, actually, it does. you're implying a change. the only change seems to be who's in charge, not whether god's around, can act, or works gigantic miracles. saying that there will be a merge in the future is implying that there is a split NOW -- the position you cannot demonstrate with the text. do you always run away from a really good point?

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אָרַח

no, of course you don't. the math is pretty clear. you have been MATHEMATICALLY disproven. there is no stronger proof. my math confirms that. i'm not debating it. the thing is that, as per your ORIGINAL statement that the split occured 19 years into his life, this is out of the time-frame of the 120 years. if noah took 120 years to build his ark and wait for the waters, as YOUR OWN SOURCES SAY, then peleg was born 221 years after that decree. if noah took the minimum of 98, he'd still be over the 120 mark. meaning that the 120 cannot refer to peleg, period.if you really want to know, i suspect your source is right, and that it was 120 years from the decree of limit on man's life (ie: as a species) until the flood. that reading make sense. that means god gave that command 20-22 years before noah was born. it then took noah 98-100 years to find favor with god and then build the ark. a little out of sequence, since noah is introduced in chapter 5, but he's reintroduced in 6 and the bible is funny like that.in other words, the "limit on man's life" of genesis 6 cannot refer to the "world divided" in genesis 11. it does not add up. period. qed. and the trend IS clear. the largest decrease statistically is terah. the largest decrease total was shem. peleg is just a member of a steadily declining line of descendants. no one special, and not a point for your split.no one is arguing that the bible does not say people lived longer and now they don't. they're arguing that the verse in genesis 6 can't have anything to do with that, and it's not a result of a split or anything in peleg's time.

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אָרַח

you know, i've read some pretty unrealistic stuff in the bible, i will agree. but let's just be clear that that's what you're knocking here. you're knocking the actual content of the bible.god speaking it, and it being so is just not enough for you. if you're ok with that, i am too. i suspect god does operate through various mechanisms and natural law.but of all the preposterous and UNNECCESSARY explanations i've heard for things, this "sandwich" thing is by far the worst yet. if you want my advice, study science. understand it. if you don't like that, study the bible, and understanding. if you can't pick one, do both.but this game of reading whatever crackpot idea you want into whatever you feel like just isn't flying. it doesn't line up with anything in the real world, or even the biblical texts. to the rest of us, you just look like a nutter. at least the creationists have the balls to say they believe the bible, and that god acts supernaturally and in a sometimes decpetive and mysterious way.

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אָרַח

event 1: god declares that human life shall be limited to 120 years.

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Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also [is] flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

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event 2: noah gets in god's good graces.

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Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

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event 3: shem is born.

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Gen 6:10 And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

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event 4: the flood. (do you need a verse for that?)event 5: shem has a kid:

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Gen 11:10 These [are] the generations of Shem: Shem [was] an hundred years old, and begat Arphaxad two years after the flood:

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so. two years after the flood, when he has arphaxad, shem is 100 years old. the proclaimation is given before shem is born. therefor, it stands to reason, that the flood is at least 100 years after god sets the 120 year limit. the 100 years is confirmed here:

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Gen 5:32 And Noah was five hundred years old: and Noah begat Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

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Gen 7:6 And Noah [was] six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth.

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in fact, the reading that's best is that 120 years is the time from the proclaimation to the flood -- just like your source says. therefor, it cannot have anything to do with your "split" if it happened in peleg's day. qed. [qs]It seems to be a trend that quickly ends up at our present lifespans. No one says it was some exact thing, but name anyone after my attempt at a date for the split, who lived anywhere near the previous almost 1000 years? Even Noah, as I recall, lived somewhere in the right lifespan for post splitters![/quote]if noah is post-split, then here's your counter-example:

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Gen 9:29 And all the days of Noah were nine hundred and fifty years: and he died.

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950 years is pretty close to 1000. btw, that means he lived for 350 years after the flood:

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Gen 7:6 And Noah [was] six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth.

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peleg, btw, was born 101 years after the flood, lived 30 years and had a kid, then lived another 209 years.101 + 30 + 209 = 340.noah, post flood = 350.NOAH OUTLIVED PELEG.are you satisfied that your point is demolished yet? it's doubly ad-hoc. you have no reason to assume that radioactive decay did not occur at some point. you want to believe this to justify a literal belief in a young earth, to justify your belief in a particular interpretation of the bible.so not only is it ad-hoc, it's circular and self-affirming. cause god got stuck in traffic. i dunno. you're being silly. no. that is your BELIEF. an assumption. science only analyzes the physical, but it does not mean nothing else exists. in fact, if you claim to be saved then you believe inherently that we DO NOT live in a physical-only world. hey, i'm the one arguing for miracles and god-did-it here. you're the one trying to fit everything into your pre-concieved framework. your box may be shaped like a sandwich, but it's still a box.

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אָרַח

it's 100 years (or 98, depending) from the birth of shem until the flood. shem was born before the flood.the proclamation was before shem.also, as i pointed out above, noah outlived your beloved peleg by ten whole years. i just did. well, close, anyways. i gave you a timeframe for when it had to have occurred that backs the most obvious plain reading of the text -- the flood is 120 years after the proclaimation.JUST.LIKE.YOUR.OWN.SOURCES.SAY.

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אָרַח