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Member (Idle past 1495 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
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Author | Topic: A Closer Look at Pat Robertson | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
randman  Suspended Member (Idle past 4927 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: |
OK please justify these statements. Washington? religious thinker? If you don't know what happened between Washington and Paine, take some to educate yourself and then get back to us.
Also, Please answer my questions from earlier post. By allowing religion and governemnt to mix you mean christianity and religion correct? What do you mean by religion and government "mixing"? I have never argued for that.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1495 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Neither American history nor church-state issues are on-topic in this thread.
Your constant attempt to send us off the rails begins to look a little suspicious, Rand. Having trouble with the topic at hand?
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randman  Suspended Member (Idle past 4927 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: |
You're being silly. Quit dodging the issue. What you seem to be saying is that religioys values are not an acceptable basis for laws, and that's where you are wrong. The Constitution does not ban religious values or religion from influencing secular laws.
What the Constitution bans is for the government to pass ecclesiastical laws pertaining to religious doctrine or church affairs.
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randman  Suspended Member (Idle past 4927 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: |
Crash, you are the one that brought up separation of Church and State, not me. I suggest you take your own advice, but if you are going to make wild, unfounded accusations based on ignorance, then you should expect some folks to correct you.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9199 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
We have been asked to keep this thread on topic.
I was looking for you to show proof for your comments. BUt if have none fine. And there is no need to be condescending, but then again you tend to do that when asked to provide proof for your comments. If church and state are not seperate then they are one (thus mixed). It is an either or.
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CK Member (Idle past 4156 days) Posts: 3221 Joined: |
It appears that you are engaged in debate with randman - his only aim will be to draw you off the topic. Under those circumstances it is best not even to point out to him that is what he is doing - just reply to those questions/points that actually have to do with Crash's OP.
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randman  Suspended Member (Idle past 4927 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: |
There is no such thing as separation of church and state in the Constitution. Um, crash, you do realize that is a factual statement. The term "separation of Church and State" is not in the Constitution.
The right of free expression of religion is granted to the people, not to the government. There's no violation of the First Amendment because that amendment grants rights to the people, not to the government. Are people not within the government? Basically, you are ignoring the fact that the prohibition is not towards government participation, but government legislation. If what you are saying is true, then Congressional chaplains should be unConstitutional, right? And you agree with that, right? But here's your problem. The people that ratified the Constitution are the same ones that instituted Congressional chaplains. Evidently, they didn't think it was unConstitutional. Maybe what's occuring is that you have a false idea on what the 1st amendment says? I respectfully submit this is the case, and moreover, that we should interpret the establishment and free exercise clause with it's original intention, not some concept borne out of claims of the Constitution being a living document.
his religion would necessitate religious laws, and he would excize persons who were not either Christians or Jews from office: No, he just thinks in an ideal situation we should only vote for Christians and Jews for elected office. That's not the same as passing laws to create a theocracy. You and libs in typical fashion overstate the case. He has some views to one side, but he's not advocating a theocracy as you claim. What you fail to realize is the 1st amendment guarantees the rights of someone like PR to hold contrary views. He thinks religious people are the only ones to be trusted with power. Well, guess what, I've heard others say the opposite, that no seriously devoted religious person should be trusted with power. In America, you get to have the opinions you want.
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randman  Suspended Member (Idle past 4927 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: |
I guess if you are thoroughly beaten, you start resorting to claiming others repudiating your claims are off-topic.
Gotta go. Faith, I was glad to help out. Have a good evening.
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nwr Member Posts: 6412 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 4.5 |
What the Constitution bans is for the government to pass ecclesiastical laws pertaining to religious doctrine or church affairs.
Wow! Yes, I know I am off topic. But that's such a gross misreading of the constitution, it deserves to be highlighted.
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randman  Suspended Member (Idle past 4927 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: |
"Congress shall pass no law...."
I suggest you read the Constitution first before making yourself look foolish here.
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nwr Member Posts: 6412 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 4.5
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"Congress shall pass no law...."
Right. But by logic that completely escapes me, you reach the strange conclusion that it is talking about ecclesiastic law.
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Nuggin Member (Idle past 2521 days) Posts: 2965 From: Los Angeles, CA USA Joined: |
I'll go start a new thread about foundations of our legal system, let's get back on topic here.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1495 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Um, crash, you do realize that is a factual statement. The term "separation of Church and State" is not in the Constitution. I didn't contest it's factuality. I'm merely defending the assertion that this is Robertson's view, which you challenged but appear now to accept. As I said, the legitimacy of Robertson's views is not the topic of this thread.
If what you are saying is true, then Congressional chaplains should be unConstitutional, right? I believe I've already asserted that I believe that they are unconstitutional. Regardless, that is not the topic of this thread.
No, he just thinks in an ideal situation we should only vote for Christians and Jews for elected office That would be an inaccurate characterization of his views, which he goes on to clarify:
quote: I don't see anything there about voting, do you?
In America, you get to have the opinions you want. I've never said that he doesn't. This sub-topic is about the defense of an accurate characterization of his views, which you challenged and then accepted, not defending or attacking their legitimacy. Nonetheless, speech has consequences. Robertson is entitled to his views but I'm entitled to call for cable companies to stop using my money to fund speech I don't support. And, again, constitutional issues are not the topic of this thread.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1495 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Crash, you are the one that brought up separation of Church and State, not me. That would be incorrect. Church-state issues were introduced into the thread by you, when you challenged the assertion that Robertson doesn't believe in the separation of church and state, a claim which you later appeared to abandon. I remind you again that church-state issues are not the topic of this thread; the topic of the thread is Pat Robertson and his credentials as a humanitarian.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1495 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
I guess if you are thoroughly beaten, you start resorting to claiming others repudiating your claims are off-topic. Your claims have been consistently off-topic, except for a half-hearted attempt to contest minor issues of the OP. To date not a single post of yours has successfully contended with my argument; hence your repeated attempts to hijack the thread.
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